Euphyllia coral slowly dying

[bruno3047]

Funny you mention that. I have a small sample bottles of Kent essential elements, was afraid to try it as it contains chelated copper, I believe. Wasn't sure that was safe with inverts

I dose it regularly with my auto doser.

Funny you mention that. I have a small sample bottles of Kent essential elements, was afraid to try it as it contains chelated copper, I believe. Wasn't sure that was safe with inverts

I dose Essential Elements with my automatic doser. Never had a problem.

 

[mdb_talon]

Could you kindly post the testing and findings you speak of?

I am following a lot of high end torch collectors and vendors who would argue differently.

It would be nice to show them hard facts to prove them wrong and help them as well.

Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by a bacterial pathogen, and so may be treatable...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MERKEY]

Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by a bacterial pathogen, and so may be treatable...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for this link.

I remember this for sure but definitely forgot as this was almost 2 years ago.

While this is 1 person doing his test with his personal experience a lot has changed in the last 2 years regarding the treatment.

While I definitely appreciate and respect the link and the testing he did with his biodome on his tank, every tanks biodome is different and people in this hobby are now using cipro and other meds on a daily basis and blindly adding it to their tanks constantly and then things still die.

This can cause an immunity and build up just as it does in humans with antibiotics.

I've reached out to him and the vet that's been doing recent testing.

I'd like the medication to be used properly and be successful for all.

 

[Lavey29]

Thanks for this link.

I remember this for sure but definitely forgot as this was almost 2 years ago.

While this is 1 person doing his test with his personal experience a lot has changed in the last 2 years regarding the treatment.

While I definitely appreciate and respect the link and the testing he did with his biodome on his tank, every tanks biodome is different and people in this hobby are now using cipro and other meds on a daily basis and blindly adding it to their tanks constantly and then things still die.

This can cause an immunity and build up just as it does in humans with antibiotics.

I've reached out to him and the vet that's been doing recent testing.

I'd like the medication to be used properly and be successful for all.

Worked well in my tank with no adverse affects that I could tell.

 

[MERKEY]

Worked well in my tank with no adverse affects that I could tell.

Yes completely agree.

I'm talking about long term usage.

The unfortunate part is people are using this more and more consistently.

Bacteria builds a resistance and then can also change.

I'm just trying to limit the blind dumping of meds into our tanks.

I probably use cipro as much as vendors but I have a tank to treat in.

Dosing the whole tank continually is what I'm really trying to figure out the long term damage.

Sorry OP not trying to derail your thread.

Just want to get this treatment more known for long term usage in the hobby.

 

[mdb_talon]

Thanks for this link.

I remember this for sure but definitely forgot as this was almost 2 years ago.

While this is 1 person doing his test with his personal experience a lot has changed in the last 2 years regarding the treatment.

While I definitely appreciate and respect the link and the testing he did with his biodome on his tank, every tanks biodome is different and people in this hobby are now using cipro and other meds on a daily basis and blindly adding it to their tanks constantly and then things still die.

This can cause an immunity and build up just as it does in humans with antibiotics.

I've reached out to him and the vet that's been doing recent testing.

I'd like the medication to be used properly and be successful for all.

I dont disagree with what you are saying, but again would go back to the original statement where you said Cipro treatments eliminate the good bacteria in a reef tank. While I understand the concern I have seen no data that supports this and the only data I have seen was in the link I supplied. Certainly that was one test in one system and results may vary, but at least from what I have seen that is the best information we have. I also think there is a big difference between treating occasionally and a daily treatment I dont think anyone was suggesting in this thread a daily treatment. I treat all new LPS in my QT with a high dose of Cipro before going to any of my tanks, but have only used it in a DT one time and it worked fantastic.

 

[Jeeperz]

Would a Cipro treatment in a qt for an affected coral work or does the display need treatment as a whole to deal with the bacteria that's causing the issue? Could I Cipro a nem and my hammer at the same time?

 

[MERKEY]

I dont disagree with what you are saying, but again would go back to the original statement where you said Cipro treatments eliminate the good bacteria in a reef tank. While I understand the concern I have seen no data that supports this and the only data I have seen was in the link I supplied. Certainly that was one test in one system and results may vary, but at least from what I have seen that is the best information we have. I also think there is a big difference between treating occasionally and a daily treatment I dont think anyone was suggesting in this thread a daily treatment. I treat all new LPS in my QT with a high dose of Cipro before going to any of my tanks, but have only used it in a DT one time and it worked fantastic.

This is what I'm trying to distinguish.

I apologize for first statement about kilking all bacteria including beneficial.

Antibiotics usually are given to us for 7 days...10 to make sure it is gone.

From what I'm collecting evidence wise, you would have to do the same to eliminate any bacteria from a tank completely.

Or the bad bacteria will ultimately regain strength and take over the good again.

One dose may make things look better and be ok for a few months but evidence of bacteria in ourselves shows that the 1 dose is never really enough.

 

[MERKEY]

Would a Cipro treatment in a qt for an affected coral work or does the display need treatment as a whole to deal with the bacteria that's causing the issue? Could I Cipro a nem and my hammer at the same time?

This is what I'm trying to get info to people for.

Dosing a whole tank can help but 1 dose never eliminates the bacteria completely.

They regain controll.

A weekly treatment or 10 days would likely have to be done to kill the bacteria completely.

This is why more studies need to be done long term.

 

[mdb_talon]

This is what I'm trying to distinguish.

I apologize for first statement about kilking all bacteria including beneficial.

Antibiotics usually are given to us for 7 days...10 to make sure it is gone.

From what I'm collecting evidence wise, you would have to do the same to eliminate any bacteria from a tank completely.

Or the bad bacteria will ultimately regain strength and take over the good again.

One dose may make things look better amd be ok for a few months but evidence of bacteria in ourselves shows that the 1 dose is never really enough.

I think this is a good discussion please dont think I am being argumentative. The hjobby has a lot to be learned still when it comes to using antibiotics in reef tanks. I do think there is a significant difference in the use of antibiotics in humans and dosing a tank with antibiotics. In humans we get rid of those antibiotics fairly quickly as our body processes it. The scenario is different in a closed reef tank. The entire living environment of the animals is dosed with antibiotics. It is analogous to us having a constant dose of antibiotics in the air we breath. The question of course is how long the antibiotics stay in the system. Certainly more than 1 day/dose, yet certainly not forever. Likely impacted by countless things (carbon use being a big one to limit how long it stays in the system). Daily doses would certainly build up in the system over time (and in my opinion at least are not necessary if the initial dose is large enough).

 

[Jeeperz]

This is what I'm trying to get info to people for.

Dosing a whole tank can help but 1 dose never eliminates the bacteria completely.

They regain controll.

A weekly treatment or 10 days would likely have to be done to kill the bacteria completely.

This is why more studies need to be done long term.

I understand the 7 or 10 day for nem Cipro, I've read the threads on that several times, also for humans to lessen the chance of antibiotic resistance, very important. What I was asking is if the whole tank needs treatment or just the coral/s showing signs of issues? I'd rather not treat the whole tank as I don't know what it will affect. Will it kill sps, leathers scans, blastos, chalice, snail, fish, ?

 

[MERKEY]

I understand the 7 or 10 day for nem Cipro, I've read the threads on that several times, also for humans to lessen the chance of antibiotic resistance, very important. What I was asking is if the whole tank needs treatment or just the coral/s showing signs of issues? I'd rather not treat the whole tank as I don't know what it will affect. Will it kill sps, leathers scans, blastos, chalice, snail, fish, ?

From others I know that have sps tanks it does not kill them or other corals after 1 dose.

I guess the main question and point is how much is enough in a display and for how long to keep the certain bad bac away or before it gains resistance or gains strength again?

I'm debating a display 1 dose remedy is not enough.

Even high enough of a dosage bacteria will be present again days/weeks later after 1 dosage.

LESS yes but still present.

Which leads into the discussion of how much and for how long?

Also why a qt is important to hit the bad bac hard before it gets to our tanks.
OP you should be fine dosing your display with cirpo if that's what you choose to do.

 

[MERKEY]

I think this is a good discussion please dont think I am being argumentative. The hjobby has a lot to be learned still when it comes to using antibiotics in reef tanks. I do think there is a significant difference in the use of antibiotics in humans and dosing a tank with antibiotics. In humans we get rid of those antibiotics fairly quickly as our body processes it. The scenario is different in a closed reef tank. The entire living environment of the animals is dosed with antibiotics. It is analogous to us having a constant dose of antibiotics in the air we breath. The question of course is how long the antibiotics stay in the system. Certainly more than 1 day/dose, yet certainly not forever. Likely impacted by countless things (carbon use being a big one to limit how long it stays in the system). Daily doses would certainly build up in the system over time (and in my opinion at least are not necessary if the initial dose is large enough).

Not at all, knowing more is always better.

Agreed humans process differently, I still would argue 1 dose regardless the size would not eliminate the bad bac completely.

Lesson 2000%

Which is why a qt to rid it first is so important.

We really don't know how long this certain bac can survive in rocks after a cipro dose.

 

[dontbuyxenia]

Crashing your phosphates can definitely cause issues. A little phosphate is not a bad thing. Check your salinity, if it creeps up to like 1.028 i see issues. Also low magnesium is definitely the biggest thing I see. Usually low mag leads to some corals doing okay and some doing bad, its very confusing and random which makes it a hard issue to really understand

 

[Lavey29]

Yes completely agree.

I'm talking about long term usage.

The unfortunate part is people are using this more and more consistently.

Bacteria builds a resistance and then can also change.

I'm just trying to limit the blind dumping of meds into our tanks.

I probably use cipro as much as vendors but I have a tank to treat in.

Dosing the whole tank continually is what I'm really trying to figure out the long term damage.

Sorry OP not trying to derail your thread.

Just want to get this treatment more known for long term usage in the hobby.

But why dose the tank continually? We dont take antibiotics continually for medical conditions just as needed depending on the situation. Maybe in a tank you could do a low dose every 4 months or so as a preventative but even then if your talk us thriving why mess with it?

 

[Lavey29]

I understand the 7 or 10 day for nem Cipro, I've read the threads on that several times, also for humans to lessen the chance of antibiotic resistance, very important. What I was asking is if the whole tank needs treatment or just the coral/s showing signs of issues? I'd rather not treat the whole tank as I don't know what it will affect. Will it kill sps, leathers scans, blastos, chalice, snail, fish, ?

I had all LPS and soft along with 9 fish, multiple shrimp, lots of snails, crabs, etc...and nothing perished during a 3 dose over 6 days. Corals responded immediately.

 

[jaw1990]

Well, you mag is still a little low but don't think that would cause this issue. What was phosphate? I found that biweekly water changes were not enough to maintain levels once I had enough corals in the tank. I dose alk and cal and to lesser degree magnesium. Since my fuge is growing well I also dose red sea trace once a week because ICP showed some trace deficiencies like iodine.

Does this look like brown jelly or just the frogspawn dying?

 

[Lavey29]

Does this look like brown jelly or just the frogspawn dying?

BJD is pretty obvious when it hits. Corals usually die in 24 hours and there is visible brown jelly like substance around the inside top if dead heads. Yours looks like a slow death as in one head at a time across a spectrum of corals as you first described. If you feel you are losing the battle quickly you can try the cipro or do a good water change with fresh carbon and wait for your ICP results.

 

[jaw1990]

BJD is pretty obvious when it hits. Corals usually die in 24 hours and there is visible brown jelly like substance around the inside top if dead heads. Yours looks like a slow death as in one head at a time across a spectrum of corals as you first described. If you feel you are losing the battle quickly you can try the cipro or do a good water change with fresh carbon and wait for your ICP results.

Did you put the cipro in at night with the lights off?

 

[Lavey29]

Did you put the cipro in at night with the lights off?

Yes because light defeats the effectiveness.