Euphyllia corals shrinking up

[cedwards04]

Could use some expert advise here. I've had several euphyllia corals for a while with no issues until recently. It started with 1 of my torches, and has now moved on to one of my hammers. I dont know what is going on. I've tried dipping the torch several times to make sure there were no pests. After the hammer started shrinking up, a friend suggested dosing ciprofloxacin. I tried that and still not having good results. The torch has been shriveled up for several months now, the hammer for about a month.

I also noticed my no3/po4 skyrocket after the cipro dosing, so im thinking this has done some damage to my nitrifying bacteria population. I've been dosing microbacter7 in an attempt to rebuild that. Before all of this, my Parameters were always pretty darn solid. I'd actually have to broadcast feed some coral foods to keep nutrient levels above 0.

Current parameters as follows
Alk 8.5dkh
Ca 440
Mg 1480
Salinity 35ppt
No3 10+ (hard for me to read once they get that high)
Po4 0.12ppm

Typically no3 would be 4-8 and po4 0.04-0.08ppm. But like I said, after the cipro dosing nutrients went way high on me. Some of my sps are not happy now and have lost color but no stn/rtn as of right now.

Also of note, I do monthly ati icp testing, nothing is showing too bad with the exception of fluoride being very low on the last test. Dosing to correct that now.

Here are some photos I just took. I did notice for the first time today, my pellet feeder is dropping pellets straight onto the hammer coral. Could this have anything to do with it?

 

[Dburr1014]

Flow?
Lights?
Dry rock start up?

 

[cedwards04]

Flow?
Lights?
Dry rock start up?

Tank is an innovative marine nuvo 40. Holds 35g of water. I'm running a nero3. Lighting is an ai hydra 26hd. Live rock. Tank is about 6 months old. Was an upgrade from a 20g waterbox. I've had most of these corals for 5+ years. Sold off a lot of stuff when I sold my 100g system. And just kept frags of the pieces I wanted to keep.

I get around 250 par at the top of the rockwork and around 100 par at the sandbed. The hammer in question is off to the side a bit and gets about 150 par. The torch was getting around 200 par but I've since moved it around a few times trying to see if that would make it happier. It has just continued to deteriorate over the last several months.

 

[Bpfor3]

did you ever find a solution? mine started looking bad after carbon dosing drove my nutrients way down. i have acros, goni, chalice you name it all doing very well but hammers and frogspawn and one duncan frag look terrible.

 

[Lavey29]

I've cipro dosed multiple times. It does nothing to affect nitrates or phosphates.

 

[cedwards04]

did you ever find a solution? mine started looking bad after carbon dosing drove my nutrients way down. i have acros, goni, chalice you name it all doing very well but hammers and frogspawn and one duncan frag look terrible.

I did not. I moved the affected corals to a hospital tank in an effort to keep whatever is going on from spreading further. I lost the torch and the hammer completely. So far nothing else has shown signs of any problems. I tried dipping the corals for pests before placing in the hospital tank, and dosed cipro in the hospital tank. Nothing helped and they both eventually died.

 

[cedwards04]

I've cipro dosed multiple times. It does nothing to affect nitrates or phosphates.

I have to strongly disagree. It's great that it didn't in your case, but it certainly did in mine. I am still battling that actually. I went from a tank that was on autopilot with very little algae growth and nutrient levels that were always extremely predictable at no3 4-8 and po4 at 0.04-0.08 (nutrients would drop slowly to the lower numbers and then I would feed reef roids and benepets to boost nutrients back up to the higher numbers) to a tank that is out of control with nutrients. I havent fed any reef roids or benepets in weeks, and cut my fish feeding in half. I'm also carbon dosing red sea nopox and still can't keep nutrients down anywhere near normal levels. I've got green hair algae running wild. No3 is off the chart on my red sea pro kit, po4 is 0.2ppm. I'm up to dosing 4ml of nopox daily and nutrients still won't stay down. I'm also dosing microbacter7 daily. Cipro absolutely destroyed my nitrifying bacteria. Nothing else was ever added to the tank and nutrients skyrocketed immediately following the treatment. There is no other explanation.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I have to strongly disagree. It's great that it didn't in your case, but it certainly did in mine. I am still battling that actually. I went from a tank that was on autopilot with very little algae growth and nutrient levels that were always extremely predictable at no3 4-8 and po4 at 0.04-0.08 (nutrients would drop slowly to the lower numbers and then I would feed reef roids and benepets to boost nutrients back up to the higher numbers) to a tank that is out of control with nutrients. I havent fed any reef roids or benepets in weeks, and cut my fish feeding in half. I'm also carbon dosing red sea nopox and still can't keep nutrients down anywhere near normal levels. I've got green hair algae running wild. No3 is off the chart on my red sea pro kit, po4 is 0.2ppm. I'm up to dosing 4ml of nopox daily and nutrients still won't stay down. I'm also dosing microbacter7 daily. Cipro absolutely destroyed my nitrifying bacteria. Nothing else was ever added to the tank and nutrients skyrocketed immediately following the treatment. There is no other explanation.

Did you ever do anything to remove the Cipro? I've never used it myself, but is there a chance you could have over dosed the Cipro?

You said your tank was only 6 months old and that you had changed from another tank. IMO, 100-150 PAR is pretty low light for a lot of coral. Add in shadowing as they grow, and you are removing their major source of energy.

I also feel like constant dips and movements of the coral add stress, so if anything was wrong with them, making frequent changes only adds stress, which in turn, makes it harder for them to recover.

If I were you, I would do a series of 50% water changes over the next 2-3 weeks. This should help remove any remaining Cipro and reduce your nutrients. I would also vacuum the sand bed thoroughly. If you destroyed your nitrifying bacteria, you have nothing to lose.

Have you tested ammonia and NO2 levels? This would help determine the state of your bacterial filtration.

 

[cedwards04]

Did you ever do anything to remove the Cipro? I've never used it myself, but is there a chance you could have over dosed the Cipro?

You said your tank was only 6 months old and that you had changed from another tank. IMO, 100-150 PAR is pretty low light for a lot of coral. Add in shadowing as they grow, and you are removing their major source of energy.

I also feel like constant dips and movements of the coral add stress, so if anything was wrong with them, making frequent changes only adds stress, which in turn, makes it harder for them to recover.

If I were you, I would do a series of 50% water changes over the next 2-3 weeks. This should help remove any remaining Cipro and reduce your nutrients. I would also vacuum the sand bed thoroughly. If you destroyed your nitrifying bacteria, you have nothing to lose.

Have you tested ammonia and NO2 levels? This would help determine the state of your bacterial filtration.

I have not done anything to remove the cipro. It's my understanding that light breaks it down fairly quickly. I'm sure it is possible I overdosed it, but I dont believe I did. I try to be pretty careful about that kind of stuff, but I've also learned over the years that mistakes can certainly happen. I do run activated carbon.

This tank has been set up for about 6 months, yes. However, it was a transfer from a 20g tank that was up for about 6 months as well, which was a transfer from my 100g system that was several years old. All of the rock is very well established, old live rock. Corals have been with me for years. The corals in question were in the 150-200 par range. Not down on the sand where I'm getting 100-150 par. I used a par meter when I set up the lights, as I did in the other tanks, to make sure the corals are getting the same par they have been use to for years. Lights are the same as well (ai hydra 26hd), same spectrum. There was no shadowing on them.

I agree that constant moving and dips can stress them. I only moved the torch a few times to see if flow was the problem. I only dipped it a couple times, and that was several months apart.

I dont do waterchanges. Havent done one in 3+yrs on my tanks. I follow the reef moonshiner method which involves monthly icp testing and regular dosing to maintain perfectly stable and proper water parameters. Everything else in the tank is happy and healthy. I am consuming alk/ca pretty aggressively and seeing good growth and coloration from everything other than the 2 euphyllia corals in question. At this point I'm leaning pretty strongly towards some type of bacterial infection and hoping I've resolved the issue by removing them from the tank.

 

[vetteguy53081]

These corals stress very easily and it is likely was due to strong light or flow as well as can be low calcium as they are skeletal coral with polyps
Too much flow and the polyps tear off the skeleton and too little and they shrink. Too much light will cause them to expel their energy source known as zooxanthellae and too little light - they also shrink and even recede

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I have not done anything to remove the cipro. It's my understanding that light breaks it down fairly quickly. I'm sure it is possible I overdosed it, but I dont believe I did. I try to be pretty careful about that kind of stuff, but I've also learned over the years that mistakes can certainly happen. I do run activated carbon.

This tank has been set up for about 6 months, yes. However, it was a transfer from a 20g tank that was up for about 6 months as well, which was a transfer from my 100g system that was several years old. All of the rock is very well established, old live rock. Corals have been with me for years. The corals in question were in the 150-200 par range. Not down on the sand where I'm getting 100-150 par. I used a par meter when I set up the lights, as I did in the other tanks, to make sure the corals are getting the same par they have been use to for years. Lights are the same as well (ai hydra 26hd), same spectrum. There was no shadowing on them.

I agree that constant moving and dips can stress them. I only moved the torch a few times to see if flow was the problem. I only dipped it a couple times, and that was several months apart.

I dont do waterchanges. Havent done one in 3+yrs on my tanks. I follow the reef moonshiner method which involves monthly icp testing and regular dosing to maintain perfectly stable and proper water parameters. Everything else in the tank is happy and healthy. I am consuming alk/ca pretty aggressively and seeing good growth and coloration from everything other than the 2 euphyllia corals in question. At this point I'm leaning pretty strongly towards some type of bacterial infection and hoping I've resolved the issue by removing them from the tank.

Ok. Sounds like you don't need the advice you requested. I wouldn't call your parameters perfectly stable if you can't figure out why your NO3 and PO4 are high and keep rising. Best of luck.

 

[Lavey29]

I have to strongly disagree. It's great that it didn't in your case, but it certainly did in mine. I am still battling that actually. I went from a tank that was on autopilot with very little algae growth and nutrient levels that were always extremely predictable at no3 4-8 and po4 at 0.04-0.08 (nutrients would drop slowly to the lower numbers and then I would feed reef roids and benepets to boost nutrients back up to the higher numbers) to a tank that is out of control with nutrients. I havent fed any reef roids or benepets in weeks, and cut my fish feeding in half. I'm also carbon dosing red sea nopox and still can't keep nutrients down anywhere near normal levels. I've got green hair algae running wild. No3 is off the chart on my red sea pro kit, po4 is 0.2ppm. I'm up to dosing 4ml of nopox daily and nutrients still won't stay down. I'm also dosing microbacter7 daily. Cipro absolutely destroyed my nitrifying bacteria. Nothing else was ever added to the tank and nutrients skyrocketed immediately following the treatment. There is no other explanation.

If you destroyed your nitrifying bacteria all your fish would be dead in less then 24 hours from ammonia spike. You also would not see elevated nitrates because that is what nitrifying bacteria do.You are incorrect in your assessment but I do wish you luck resolving your problems.

 

[Lavey29]

Ok. Sounds like you don't need the advice you requested. I wouldn't call your parameters perfectly stable if you can't figure out why your NO3 and PO4 are high and keep rising. Best of luck.

It's just typical 6 month old tank instability which causes fluctuations in numbers, nuisance algae etc... irregardless of using live rock from prior tanks, immature new tanks are going to go through their evolution process and not doing any water changes when you have elevated nutrients isn't going to help anything except the algae.

 

[bluerider098]

Have you tried a large waterchange?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Have you tried a large waterchange?

He "doesn't do water changes..."

 

[bluerider098]

He "doesn't do water changes..."

9 times out of 10 when I've had a problem that I couldn't explain a large water change has fixed it it's kind of a reset for everything...... Unless it's bacterial but it sounds like they've already treated for that.

 

[cedwards04]

Ok. Sounds like you don't need the advice you requested. I wouldn't call your parameters perfectly stable if you can't figure out why your NO3 and PO4 are high and keep rising. Best of luck.

Maybe I could have explained it better, although I'm not sure how, but my Parameters were stable before the cipro treatment. Obviously they are not now. The point I was making is that they were very stable until I did the cipro treatment. That's when nutrient levels went wildly out of control. Nothing changed in my tank other than the cipro treatment. Logic would say the 2 are related.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Maybe I could have explained it better, although I'm not sure how, but my Parameters were stable before the cipro treatment. Obviously they are not now. The point I was making is that they were very stable until I did the cipro treatment. That's when nutrient levels went wildly out of control. Nothing changed in my tank other than the cipro treatment. Logic would say the 2 are related.

I understand that, but I thought we were trying to fix the problem since the Cipro. Your parameters are not stable now. You are still having issues with nutrients. My suggestion of a few large water changes to help reset your system stands. It is the easiest and quickest way to get quality water back into your system. It will also remove a lot of contaminants without removing beneficial bacteria.

Though ICP tests are great, they only test for certain items. There could be contaminants in your water that aren't being tested, such as the Cipro.

Best of luck.

 

[cedwards04]

I understand that, but I thought we were trying to fix the problem since the Cipro. Your parameters are not stable now. You are still having issues with nutrients. My suggestion of a few large water changes to help reset your system stands. It is the easiest and quickest way to get quality water back into your system. It will also remove a lot of contaminants without removing beneficial bacteria.

Though ICP tests are great, they only test for certain items. There could be contaminants in your water that aren't being tested, such as the Cipro.

Best of luck.

I'm not opposed to doing some waterchanges to bring nutrients down to acceptable levels, but I know if I don't correct the issue causing the nutrient spike, they are just going to bounce right back up again. I'd need to order some salt, I don't have much laying around and honestly is pretty terrible as far as what I'm shooting for parameter wise. So using it would set me back a long ways on my trace element corrections. I guess that's my main reason for apprehension on waterchanges. I may have to suck it up and just do it though. It's a small tank so we aren't talking about a lot of money here.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

(parameters)...were very stable until I did the cipro treatment. That's when nutrient levels went wildly out of control. Nothing changed in my tank other than the cipro treatment. Logic would say the 2 are related.

but I know if I don't correct the issue causing the nutrient spike, they are just going to bounce right back up again.

Based on your "logic", you already know the "issue causing the nutrient spike".

I can understand if you don't want to follow the advice we've given you, but asking the question in different ways isn't going to change it... Take it or leave it. Good luck.