Ever Try Two Algaecides At Once?

[Dan_P]

In a discussion with @taricha about developing a safe dosing rate for Vibrant and Algaefix, I wondered about using Vibrant/Algaefix plus another remedy. The rationale is that Vibrant and Algaefix seem to work by compromising algae cell walls or membranes within 24 hours. With the algae in this weaken state, would the algaecide activity of H2O2, fluconazole or other cure be enhanced?

The potential upside of this combination therapy is lower concentrations of these biocides. The potential downside, there could be enhanced toxicity to other organisms in the aquarium (so don’t try this idea outside the test tube for now).

Thoughts?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

In a discussion with @taricha about developing a safe dosing rate for Vibrant and Algaefix, I wondered about using Vibrant/Algaefix plus another remedy. The rationale is that Vibrant and Algaefix seem to work by compromising algae cell walls or membranes within 24 hours. With the algae in this weaken state, would the algaecide activity of H2O2, fluconazole or other cure be enhanced?

The potential upside of this combination therapy is lower concentrations of these biocides. The potential downside, there could be enhanced toxicity to other organisms in the aquarium (so don’t try this idea outside the test tube for now).

Thoughts

I'd be more worried about what those chemicals can do to the bacteria (not necessarily nitrifying bacteria even) or zooxanthellae

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There are examples of synergy in antimicrobials as well as synergy in toxicity of compounds to higher organisms (e.g., fish).

 

[sixty_reefer]

In a discussion with @taricha about developing a safe dosing rate for Vibrant and Algaefix, I wondered about using Vibrant/Algaefix plus another remedy. The rationale is that Vibrant and Algaefix seem to work by compromising algae cell walls or membranes within 24 hours. With the algae in this weaken state, would the algaecide activity of H2O2, fluconazole or other cure be enhanced?

The potential upside of this combination therapy is lower concentrations of these biocides. The potential downside, there could be enhanced toxicity to other organisms in the aquarium (so don’t try this idea outside the test tube for now).

Thoughts?

Do you know what’s the active ingredient in vibrant or algae fix?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Do you know what’s the active ingredient in vibrant or algae fix?

Yes. They are the same, a cationic polymer.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes. They are the same, a cationic polymer.

Was just curious although I have no idea of what a cationic polymer is, as Dan mentioned that it seems that they are compromising the algae wall cell it reminded me of chlorine similar effect on pool algaes by oxidising and removing oxygen, wondering if the active ingredient in excess could affect zooxanthellae

 

[SlugSnorter]

Was just curious although I have no idea of what a cationic polymer is, as Dan mentioned that it seems that they are compromising the algae wall cell it reminded me of chlorine similar effect on pool algaes by oxidising and removing oxygen, wondering if the active ingredient in excess could affect zooxanthellae

we have reports of corals getting stressed by vibrant, so maybe.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Was just curious although I have no idea of what a cationic polymer is, as Dan mentioned that it seems that they are compromising the algae wall cell it reminded me of chlorine similar effect on pool algaes by oxidising and removing oxygen, wondering if the active ingredient in excess could affect zooxanthellae

The polymer will attach to and potentially damage any cell surface membrane that is negatively charged.

 

[areefer01]

Thoughts?

Yeah - why not a proper mix of herbivorous and staying ahead of it

 

[jda]

You should post this question in the algae or general forum, but specifically ask if anybody used Vibrant with another algae product. Too few know that Vibrant is not bacteria... even now.

A lot of these folks were really desperate and might have tried a whole bunch of different things.

 

[taricha]

a quick glance of the papers I saw on this idea use the cationic polymer to increase cell permeability ... to whatever they want to get into the cell. So results like increased antibiotic effectiveness for a bunch of different antibiotics against cells and biofilms. The antibiotics done along with a cationic polymer became more potent and affected wider range of organisms than the antibiotics alone.
Polymers as advanced antibacterial and antibiofilm agents for direct and combination therapies

Vibrant/algaefix + Chemiclean might be an interesting forum search (haven't looked myself, I'll let you find the goodies, @Dan_P ) since I'm sure there's been a good bit of overlapping usage in the hobby.

If there were agents that are photosynthetic-specific, but were variable in their ability to get into cells, then the cationic polymer might be a combo that helped the algaecidal effects.

If I remember, metronidazole acts on algae by doing some stuff with ferredoxin in the photosynthetic machinery (it was accidentally found to be effective against most dinoflagellates). But metro as a fish medicine targets things that aren't photosynthetic at all. So I have no idea what it would kill more easily when delivered with algaefix/vibrant.

p.s. found a forum post of somebody doing vibrant, Dino-X and metroplex at the same time to try to rid dinos. All three of those separately are effective against dinos in varying degrees. Result: A bunch of SPS coral died and it looks like GHA + dinos grew just fine, including on the coral skeleton. Nuisance algae are amazingly tough. It's impressive, really.

 

[jda]

Probably search for Vibrant/Busan77/AlageFIx and Flucanzole too.

 

[Dan_P]

a quick glance of the papers I saw on this idea use the cationic polymer to increase cell permeability ... to whatever they want to get into the cell. So results like increased antibiotic effectiveness for a bunch of different antibiotics against cells and biofilms. The antibiotics done along with a cationic polymer became more potent and affected wider range of organisms than the antibiotics alone.
Polymers as advanced antibacterial and antibiofilm agents for direct and combination therapies

Vibrant/algaefix + Chemiclean might be an interesting forum search (haven't looked myself, I'll let you find the goodies, @Dan_P ) since I'm sure there's been a good bit of overlapping usage in the hobby.

If there were agents that are photosynthetic-specific, but were variable in their ability to get into cells, then the cationic polymer might be a combo that helped the algaecidal effects.

If I remember, metronidazole acts on algae by doing some stuff with ferredoxin in the photosynthetic machinery (it was accidentally found to be effective against most dinoflagellates). But metro as a fish medicine targets things that aren't photosynthetic at all. So I have no idea what it would kill more easily when delivered with algaefix/vibrant.

p.s. found a forum post of somebody doing vibrant, Dino-X and metroplex at the same time to try to rid dinos. All three of those separately are effective against dinos in varying degrees. Result: A bunch of SPS coral died and it looks like GHA + dinos grew just fine, including on the coral skeleton. Nuisance algae are amazingly tough. It's impressive, really.

Did a preliminary search and found examples of combo therapy. No eurekas! but some examples of harm, though it could be attributed to just Vibrant overdosing. I think this idea needs lab work.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Did a preliminary search and found examples of combo therapy. No eurekas! but some examples of harm, though it could be attributed to just Vibrant overdosing. I think this idea needs lab work.

I would consider the die of of macro algaes in a tank as the main reason for coral die off.

 

[jda]

I am hardly an expert, but I did search and read a lot from all of this. Micro and macro algae share lots of things, but not enough to just broadly say that they suffer and benefit from all of the same things. That being said, if the host does not protect the micro algae, something that damages cells, like Vibrant, is likely to harm micro algae too. To me, as a moron non-expert, the host is what likely keeps the zoox from suffering as bad of a fate as the macro algae does.

 

[Dan_P]

I would consider the die of of macro algaes in a tank as the main reason for coral die off.

Yes, we will need to be open to the possibilities.

What do you think the connection is between dying algae and dying coral? Is it cause and effect or correlation, say to the concentration of the agent that killed the algae?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes, we will need to be open to the possibilities.

What do you think the connection is between dying algae and dying coral? Is it cause and effect or correlation, say to the concentration of the agent that killed the algae?

I would be concerned with the amount of algaes in the tank, most macro and micro algaes once they die will release N and P into the water column as it’s common knowledge, what most forget wile using this products is that the main nutrients being released by the die of is actually Organic Carbon that will have a greater impact over the nutrient and large swings in nutrient and nutrient limitations is known to kill coral. That’s the reason a lot of users thought that this product were bacteria driven as they all notice reduction in nutrients.
the reduction is most likely caused by the organic carbon being released in to the water column that increases heterotrophs that will utilise C, N and P and strip a tank of nutrients that way in addition many that are fighting pest algaes already have the nutrients too low.
I would take that in consideration before pointing fingers to products that could be working as designed wend the culprit could just be poor nutrient management and understanding.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I am hardly an expert, but I did search and read a lot from all of this. Micro and macro algae share lots of things, but not enough to just broadly say that they suffer and benefit from all of the same things. That being said, if the host does not protect the micro algae, something that damages cells, like Vibrant, is likely to harm micro algae too. To me, as a moron non-expert, the host is what likely keeps the zoox from suffering as bad of a fate as the macro algae does.

Wold you suspect that it can affect zoox under normal conditions or if the product is overdosed.

 

[sixty_reefer]

a quick glance of the papers I saw on this idea use the cationic polymer to increase cell permeability ... to whatever they want to get into the cell. So results like increased antibiotic effectiveness for a bunch of different antibiotics against cells and biofilms. The antibiotics done along with a cationic polymer became more potent and affected wider range of organisms than the antibiotics alone.
Polymers as advanced antibacterial and antibiofilm agents for direct and combination therapies

Vibrant/algaefix + Chemiclean might be an interesting forum search (haven't looked myself, I'll let you find the goodies, @Dan_P ) since I'm sure there's been a good bit of overlapping usage in the hobby.

If there were agents that are photosynthetic-specific, but were variable in their ability to get into cells, then the cationic polymer might be a combo that helped the algaecidal effects.

If I remember, metronidazole acts on algae by doing some stuff with ferredoxin in the photosynthetic machinery (it was accidentally found to be effective against most dinoflagellates). But metro as a fish medicine targets things that aren't photosynthetic at all. So I have no idea what it would kill more easily when delivered with algaefix/vibrant.

p.s. found a forum post of somebody doing vibrant, Dino-X and metroplex at the same time to try to rid dinos. All three of those separately are effective against dinos in varying degrees. Result: A bunch of SPS coral died and it looks like GHA + dinos grew just fine, including on the coral skeleton. Nuisance algae are amazingly tough. It's impressive, really.

Have you got a link to the thread would be interesting to see the nutrients in this tank

 

[jda]

The stuff binds the first negatively charged thing that it can find. It is unlikely that the product in the amounts dosed would get much further than the host and down into the tissue. Again, no proof, just some supposition based on more harm being done to macro than zoox (dinos or microalgae) and reading about the nature of the product. Dinos out in the open do appear affected.