Everyone in DT is dying...unsure cause...

[taimarain]

Hey guys.. I started my tank off with 2 baby clowns (2-3 cm), 3 chromis and 2 crabs. (50 gallon) The first clown died 4 days later. She was fine on day 1 and 2 (I didn't see anything but my daughter said it looked like she had little bubbles or boils on her) on day 3 she stopped eating and on day 4 she died. Out of the chromis, there's 2 big ones and a small one... one of the bigger ones was picking on everyone so I took him out (after tearing the tank apart while trying to capture him) and put him in the sump while I ordered another tank for him and QT. Now there's 3 fish left in my DT. Exactly a week after the first clown died, the second one died. Same thing, nothing visual had a great appetite all week until suddenly stopped eating and died the next day. The same night that the 2nd clown died... the smaller chromis stopped eating... (3 days prior, one morning we noticed some white specks on him... looks like fresh water ich... had 3 spots... 2 on his body, one on his fin. That evening the spots were gone and haven't seen them since) This morning I woke up, and the baby is missing. Assuming the crabs ate him cause there's a lid so he didnt' jump. Now there's 1 fish left in the DT and his scales are fine, no signs of anything except he is hiding where the baby hid and didn't come up to eat. He ate well last night.... following what happened to the last fish.. he's not going to make it past tomorrow night...

Meanwhile... the one in the sump is doing great! Never had signs of spots, has a great appetite... very active and curious... It's the same water cause it's all connected... can something be in the DT but filtered out before it gets to the sump? I have it going into a filtered sock... and he's in that partition.. The tank I ordered will be here today, I'll get him in it this afternoon but I don't understand what's going on. How do you treat something when you don't know for sure what it is? Also... I'm in China, there's no LFS that sells anything for saltwater fish so I have to order everything online. I tried to set up a "Fishy first aid" so I have things on hand... All I can find are "broad spectrum antibiotics" your guess is as good as mine as what's in it... and Methyl Blue. I looked for copper and I can't find that... I miss my clown fishies :-( I have to sort this out before I get anything else... any ideas?

 

[Old Fritz]

If you saw spots than it is probably ich or velvet. My first reef tank I kept losing clownfish after clownfish with no visible symptoms except after anywhere from a week to 3 weeks later they would stop eating and die a day later. One day I messed up a water change and the next morning they were absolutely covered in white spots. After realizing the salinity was too high I lowered it and when I checked a little later the spots were all gone. Treated with copper and never had a problem since

Anyways with my experience it is probably ich or velvet and I would treat accordingly with copper. You said you couldn't get copper there so the only other method I recommend is the tank transfer method.

 

[taimarain]

Yeah that's EXACTLY what's going on. They stop eating and then a day later they die :-( I got my new tank for them so I'll put them in it for now... and start the TTM... I don't think the one is going to make it through the night tho, he's acting the same way the other did last night... and he's officially stopped eating.. hasn't eaten anything this morning or this evening.

Here's another question.... I've read that after having ich in the display tank, you have to leave it without fish for 72 days to make sure that there's no more parasite.... it only takes a month to cycle a tank... (possibly less with live rock)... couldn't I theoretically clean my tank... bleach it or vinegar it let it dry for 24 hours and start over again? Then I'd have to wait 30 days instead of 72...

Also I contacted the online store where I got them and got the Chinese name for the copper and he sent me a link... I'll have to read up on how to use it but it's a step in the right direction!

 

[southerntnreefer]

Yeah that's EXACTLY what's going on. They stop eating and then a day later they die :-( I got my new tank for them so I'll put them in it for now... and start the TTM... I don't think the one is going to make it through the night tho, he's acting the same way the other did last night... and he's officially stopped eating.. hasn't eaten anything this morning or this evening.

Here's another question.... I've read that after having ich in the display tank, you have to leave it without fish for 72 days to make sure that there's no more parasite.... it only takes a month to cycle a tank... (possibly less with live rock)... couldn't I theoretically clean my tank... bleach it or vinegar it let it dry for 24 hours and start over again? Then I'd have to wait 30 days instead of 72...

Also I contacted the online store where I got them and got the Chinese name for the copper and he sent me a link... I'll have to read up on how to use it but it's a step in the right direction!

you would have to bleach and sun dry your rock, replace sand bed etc as well, but it could be done...

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Most often parasitic infections don't show a physical sign, but sometimes they do. It is luck of the draw. You can have a high density of free swimmers in your water and fish show no signs, or you could have very few but white spots are present. I have seen infected fish that showed no spots or sloughing of tissue. Parasites can hide in the gills and cause massive amounts of damage before you know what is going on. This is why I don't believe in just throwing in 'healthy' looking fish. Everything goes through medicated QT. Keep in mind most fish stores keep all fish in tanks that are plumbed together. Every LFS has parasites in their water unless they are dosing medications at therapeutic levels. They buy fish from wholesalers sight unseen and they sell these fish within a few days. It is unavoidable for many LFS.

 

[taimarain]

you would have to bleach and sun dry your rock, replace sand bed etc as well, but it could be done...

Right? That's what I'm wondering... I don't care if the rock has to sit in the sun for a month... in the meantime... I would have new Live rock... start the cycle again... So I bleach the tank, dry it... let it sit for 2 days to ensure it's completely dry and start over with new sand and new live rock... then cycle it again (3-4 weeks) and it's done... instead of 72 flippin days... right? Theoretically it would work wouldn't it? If so, sounds faster then going 72 days without any fish... why wouldn't more people do this? What am I missing?

 

[taimarain]

Most often parasitic infections don't show a physical sign, but sometimes they do. It is luck of the draw. You can have a high density of free swimmers in your water and fish show no signs, or you could have very few but white spots are present. I have seen infected fish that showed no spots or sloughing of tissue. Parasites can hide in the gills and cause massive amounts of damage before you know what is going on. This is why I don't believe in just throwing in 'healthy' looking fish. Everything goes through medicated QT. Keep in mind most fish stores keep all fish in tanks that are plumbed together. Every LFS has parasites in their water unless they are dosing medications at therapeutic levels. They buy fish from wholesalers sight unseen and they sell these fish within a few days. It is unavoidable for many LFS.

Yeah I totally get it, it's my own fault.. I knew better but thought... what can it hurt? There's no fish in the tank... not thinking about the live bacteria in the tank and all that... oy! My daughter had a new camera and just noticed today she took pics of the first batch of fish (the one who died three days after we got her) and she zoomed in and sure enough you can see stuff on her... I can post the pic of it.. would be nice to know what I'm dealing with... I do agree with what the first person said, it's either Velvet or Ich... I'm down to two Chromis left... the one in the sump who was removed before the "outbreak" and the one who was left in the DT. The night after the baby died, this fish was starting to do his "death dance" and I figured I have nothing to lose... so I tried the freshwater dip... (at this point he hadn't eaten in 2 days same story as the others and was doing that "dance") So I dipped him for 2 mins, then put him back in the tank... the next morning he was still alive, so I gave him an airstone cause he was breathing hard... that afternoon he came out looking for food... so I dipped him for another 2 mins that night and put him in QT. He's scared but he's eating and checking his surroundings periodically.... I can't beleive he's still alive... and would be nice to know what the heck he has... each time we fresh water dip him he has tiny white specs in the water after... more the first night but still had some the second night.,... no doubt, dipping him saved him..

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Yeah I totally get it, it's my own fault.. I knew better but thought... what can it hurt? There's no fish in the tank... not thinking about the live bacteria in the tank and all that... oy! My daughter had a new camera and just noticed today she took pics of the first batch of fish (the one who died three days after we got her) and she zoomed in and sure enough you can see stuff on her... I can post the pic of it.. would be nice to know what I'm dealing with... I do agree with what the first person said, it's either Velvet or Ich... I'm down to two Chromis left... the one in the sump who was removed before the "outbreak" and the one who was left in the DT. The night after the baby died, this fish was starting to do his "death dance" and I figured I have nothing to lose... so I tried the freshwater dip... (at this point he hadn't eaten in 2 days same story as the others and was doing that "dance") So I dipped him for 2 mins, then put him back in the tank... the next morning he was still alive, so I gave him an airstone cause he was breathing hard... that afternoon he came out looking for food... so I dipped him for another 2 mins that night and put him in QT. He's scared but he's eating and checking his surroundings periodically.... I can't beleive he's still alive... and would be nice to know what the heck he has... each time we fresh water dip him he has tiny white specs in the water after... more the first night but still had some the second night.,... no doubt, dipping him saved him..

Sadly we have all killed fish in this hobby, if someone tells you they haven't then they are new to fish keeping. Learning from our mistakes and making the necessary corrections to avoid moralities in the future is key. IME ich does not kill multiple fish easily. It is usually velvet that can wipe out tanks. One thing I have noticed is fish can have both ich and velvet simultaneously. In some of the identification pictures you see grain sized white spots that indicates ich, but you can all see a fine dusting as well which indicates velvet. I feel these fish have both. Medicated treatment is usually the same for both. Non-medicated treatment is typically not effective for velvet.

 

[southerntnreefer]

Right? That's what I'm wondering... I don't care if the rock has to sit in the sun for a month... in the meantime... I would have new Live rock... start the cycle again... So I bleach the tank, dry it... let it sit for 2 days to ensure it's completely dry and start over with new sand and new live rock... then cycle it again (3-4 weeks) and it's done... instead of 72 flippin days... right? Theoretically it would work wouldn't it? If so, sounds faster then going 72 days without any fish... why wouldn't more people do this? What am I missing?

To be honest, if it happened to me, i didnt have anything else in the tank, coral, and all fish passed, id consider it. i think what happens, is you get a ton of coral, inverts, and such, then something happens, so its far easier not to restart.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Right? That's what I'm wondering... I don't care if the rock has to sit in the sun for a month... in the meantime... I would have new Live rock... start the cycle again... So I bleach the tank, dry it... let it sit for 2 days to ensure it's completely dry and start over with new sand and new live rock... then cycle it again (3-4 weeks) and it's done... instead of 72 flippin days... right? Theoretically it would work wouldn't it? If so, sounds faster then going 72 days without any fish... why wouldn't more people do this? What am I missing?

It can work, but in reef keeping things are measured in months and years. 72 days will give your rock a chance to continue to mature, parasites will die off, and will be the lowest cost/least work option. Patience is worth its weight in gold.

 

[taimarain]

Sadly we have all killed fish in this hobby, if someone tells you they haven't then they are new to fish keeping. Learning from our mistakes and making the necessary corrections to avoid moralities in the future is key. IME ich does not kill multiple fish easily. It is usually velvet that can wipe out tanks. One thing I have noticed is fish can have both ich and velvet simultaneously. In some of the identification pictures you see grain sized white spots that indicates ich, but you can all see a fine dusting as well which indicates velvet. I feel these fish have both. Medicated treatment is usually the same for both. Non-medicated treatment is typically not effective for velvet.

You know, my daughter and I both wondered if it was possible to have both. Seems the clowns had velvet and the chromis had ich. I was driving myself crazy trying to pinpoint. As of right now, the one chromis is in a QT tank he's doing so much better, still eating... I have to order the copper, so I'm still waiting on that. The fw dips and mb bath helped allot. The other chromis is still in the sump doing great... no signs of anything.... I don't get it... it's the same tank water but he's in the sump next to the sock...how has he not got anything? I initially got the QT for him until I can figure out what to do with him as I wasn't getting any fish for a bit... but now this happened...he's still in the sump.. And my DT is fishless... with only 2 crabs left... the morning after all these deaths (when I was expecting to find the other chromis dead..) I found a crab body in the sand... I was freaking out! My crab died too? what the heck?? Then my daughter was like umm... both crabs are in their shells alive,.... he molted lol what a time... little bugger...

So now I'm wondering... what do I do with my crabs? As I see it... my options are...1. Go fallow... and leave the crabs in there and put things on hold for the 72 day period...(probably the most logical) 2. Figure something out with the crabs, then empty, clean, and get new live rock and start over in 3-4 weeks.... or 3. Figure something out with the crabs and increase my tank temp to 90 degrees for a week...

How do you treat crabs or invertebrates? I learnt my lesson, I don't want anything in there that hasn't been treated and quarantined now... You can't use copper on them, so just monitor them for a month?

 

[taimarain]

It can work, but in reef keeping things are measured in months and years. 72 days will give your rock a chance to continue to mature, parasites will die off, and will be the lowest cost/least work option. Patience is worth its weight in gold.

Yeah I know... I'm probably going to go this way... but I like to look at my options... I have to treat the chromis with copper, and I have to quarantine anything new for a month also... so I still have to wait... I just like to know my options so I can wrap my head around things better. Also live rock is crazy cheap here and I don't have anything other then the 2 chromis and 2 hermit crabs so starting over isn't that expensive or unrealistic either I guess... Right now, I just want to understand my options and keep what I have alive...

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Yeah I know... I'm probably going to go this way... but I like to look at my options... I have to treat the chromis with copper, and I have to quarantine anything new for a month also... so I still have to wait... I just like to know my options so I can wrap my head around things better. Also live rock is crazy cheap here and I don't have anything other then the 2 chromis and 2 hermit crabs so starting over isn't that expensive or unrealistic either I guess... Right now, I just want to understand my options and keep what I have alive...

You can introduce parasites on live rock, keep that in mind. So bleaching what you have and starting over doesn't mean you will be parasite free. I prefer live rock to dry rock, but I did start with live rock on my last tank. Both have pros and cons, but if I would have started with live rock I would have left it in the tank for 72 days prior to adding any fish.

 

[taimarain]

You can introduce parasites on live rock, keep that in mind. So bleaching what you have and starting over doesn't mean you will be parasite free. I prefer live rock to dry rock, but I did start with live rock on my last tank. Both have pros and cons, but if I would have started with live rock I would have left it in the tank for 72 days prior to adding any fish.

Yeah, I thought of that too.. we had a fun time playing "what the heck is that" when we got this rock... So here's what I'm going to do... I need to get more CUC anyways and I don't want to re-introduce anything when I do that (last crabs had baby feather dusters and aiptasia) and I do need to go fallow... so I will get the crew now... go fallow for the time being this way anything in my tank will die off and anything introduced won't live either and in 6 weeks I'll have safe CUC and tank and be ready for fish...sounds tedious BUT... I want to quarantine fish for 4 weeks anyways which means I can get them in 2 weeks and start the quarantine... so it's like I only have to wait 2 weeks for fish... (6 until their in the display but I'll have new CUC to look at in there in the meantime)

 

[taimarain]

Thank you everyone for all your help. From trying to figure out what is going on in my tank to how to deal with it. I have no idea what direction I would of gone in. Losing those clowns was harder then I thought it would of been (the little guy was so wierd and quirky... he would sleep on the surface of the water every night flapping away like a fish out of water... when the lights come on he would look at me like I caught him doing something and made me feel awkward for watching him lol) Who would of thought it would of been so easy to get attached to these fish. So having the 2 chromis left and headed the direction of the clowns, I just wanted to save them and know I can fix this so I can get more clowns later. Thank you all