Everything is Dead, Including All Bristleworms

[DonTavo27]

I agree with wallyB keep the rocks, you can probably get away with a muriatic acid and chlorine dip, then rinse with RODI, and cure for a couple of weeks if you feel the need to.
i never cured the bit of Tonga branch and vanuatu island rock i kept after the fact, and have now been in 3 different display tanks with No issues, and in my current DT. I have a strong feeling something contaminated your water in turn slowly killing off your livestock. By the way Bulk Reef Supply has a video on the acid/chlorine dip for live rock, check it out.

 

[Crustaceon]

If it were me, I’d just run a ton of carbon for a month while leaving the tank fallow. I’d probably give it a healthy dose of prime and bacteria for good measure too. Either the carbon will get it, or it’ll die off if it’s biological in nature. If I lost snails that quickly, I’d assume some untested chemical found its way into the system, especially If I hadn’t changed anything myself. Still having pods is a good sign and I wouldn’t erase years of rock curing for this. One month of carbon, test snail. If it survives for a week, you’re probably good after that.

 

[dbowman5]

Thank you everyone so far for your advice. My worry about keeping my rock is that, if surfactant caused this, would it not continue to leach out for years to come causing me to lose sensitive fish and coral down the road. Would bleaching the rock remove surfactant? I have some unique pieces of rock that I would love to keep but not at the risk of losing livestock for years to come. If I run my system rocks-only in the dark for 3 month as WallyB suggested, will that remove contaminants in my rock? I was going to leave it fallow anyway for as long as it takes.

I have made plans for a quarantine tank to quarantine new fish, but was going to add my cleanup crew to my tank and start my fallow period after the last crew member was added. That was before I found that test snails were not going to live at this time.

This was not disease. During a telephone conversation with my LFS guy when this started he told me that it is not disease. He said one thing I had was healthy fish. He said it always brought a smile to his face when he did my tank because of my fish.

The fact that test snails died within 24 hours after being placed in my tank after cleaning and 200 gal water change over the course of two weeks tells me that the contaminant is still in there. Not unless I am misreading the salifert ammonia test which looks pretty white to me. I tested Saturday and ammonia was 0 (to my eyes), Nitrite 0, Phosphate 0.00 and nitrate 5.

I think I am swaying towards Greg Goby's advise of draining the tank, cleaning it and starting over with new rock and sand even though it kills me to throw away all the rock I have collected for 3 years. There are copepods still alive. I check every night.

My plans for a BTA is now another year or two down the road.

I will inspect my equipment for sure.
I have already added onto my RODI unit. Everything was replaced in the unit including the RO membrane before the last water change that killed my last two fish.

I have found a place to purchase water softener salt that is pure ocean salt that was created through sun evaporation. But leaving the unit after the softener it not written in stone, so I could change it after more research. Again this also could have been caused by my new bucket of reef salt being contaminated. I am temped to make a batch in my 5 gal tank and do a snail test, but I don't want to kill anymore sea creatures and it doesn't change anything. Maybe some day I will test it.

Will my leathers be ok in my quarantine tank filled with freshly made salt water? I know they are just leathers but they are actually a couple of nice pieces. Plus its' all I have left. The tank won't be cycled. If I use my current tank water, I'd be afraid of contaminating my new quarantine tank with something I can't get rid of.

so sad about this, but perhaps some questions, if you don't mind. surfactant generally makes bubbles and dirt binds it. possibly activated carbon would adsorb the contaminant. does anyone have the ability to do surface tension testing of the salt and your water? surfactants lower surface tension. was the tds of your RODI water tested? softening generally replaces hardness ions with other more easily removed ions. those ions are removed in the DI stage. that stage could possibly fail. one other idea is that replacing does not always guarantee that the new item is good. hope you have good results with whatever decision you make

 

[willieboy240]

I don’t know if anyone suggested a ICP test. That’s what I would do first. Just let the aquarium sit until you get the results. I think you have bad salt or water.

 

[ImGoingCoastal]

I can't contribute much toward the solution of what caused your crash, I was thinking maybe stray voltage, which then caused a chain reaction like someone else suggested.

But I noticed you are really wanting a BTA.

Why not set up a small aio to run until you sort things out? Bubble tips don't need a lot of room, so you wouldn't need to get anything major.

Had a thought. You could always pick up a 10 gallon or something, throw some rock and water from your tank into that, and do the snail test in a separate tank. That way you could determine if your rock is capable of supporting life.

 

[CarolynZ]

I hear you. Not knowing your root cause is tough. Keep looking for a cause with whatever means are possible.

I have no idea how to deal with sufficants, from what I read sufficants rinse well. That's their purpose.
Isn't the sufficant (in water softner) that was in your system made for human consumption?

Here is something I tried when I was worried about Copper Still stuck in my Pile of Rocks.

Might help you lessen the worry about keeping rocks.

Take out one large rock or a few that fit into a bucket. Fill it with new Water.
Let rock soak it for a while, to run the leach test on a small scale.
Add a senstive invert at some point to that water.
I know you don't want to kill creatures. Certainly not fish.
Killing a Small snail to save many other creatures isn't too bad (It may live, or just slowly fade [fall alseep]). How many snails get horribly killed by hermits.

I did the same when I had a suspicion about a cracked Chineese Gyre. Place it in small amount of new salt water ,and after a few days tested the water. It showed copper. I threw out the pump.

Was it your salt? You said new bucket. Look up any recalls from Manufacterer.
Guess what wiped out my Tank. It was Kent Carbon. Brand new pail.
I used it one night. Next morning my tank was melting corals.

I didn't know what was the contaminant. So I wanted to clean up the systems. And I added more CARBON.
That finished off my tank even more. Clam had one last cough, and then vapourized.
I kept doing all kind of things going insane for weeks.
Then Few weeks later, at Fish Store I see a Sign. Kent Carbon Recall. Had Copper in it. When they mined the coal, they hit a copper vein. Quality control didn't pick it up.
After I gave Kent the Serial # of my carbon.....Kent took take of me, but the journey was a nighmare.

Believe it or not. THe leather Survived, so did the trumpets, and Nothing but skeleton left Frogspawn.
WISH THE FRIGGIN GREEN Palys got wiped out for good, but they are still around invading the tank.

All those Copper Contaminated rocks are still with me. No issues, and people say copper sticks around a long time.

Not months, but couple years for corals to fully make it back.
Same original Trumpets below. Same Frogspawn (actually pruned and sold a few times)
The leather eventually outgrew the tank and I sold it.

What I'm saying. Is keep the rocks if you like them. If it's a lot of rock like I had.
I'm glad I did, since I collected special pieces over many years like you did.

Leathers are like shoe leather. Tough. Yours will do fine in same salinity water. Just add a heater, airstone.

The decision to keep the rocks is something you have to get feedback more from other experts.
I wondered for a long while if it was the right decision for me.
100% peace of mind would obviously be to not keep rocks. Tough trade off.
Maybe keep the rocks and scrap the sand. Or really rinse sand (easier then rocks). Sand is a easy replace, not rocks.

All the best. I will tag along and hope the best for you.

WOW. Your carbon acted the same way as my water changes. Letting some rock soak then trying a snail is a good idea. I think I will place some of my rock in my little 5 gal with fresh mixed salt water and try one there. I also can start removing my sand. If in the end I decide to tear the whole thing down, then so be it. Its not like I can rush out and start a rebuild and stock fish right away anyway with the lock downs and business shut down from COVID.

I emailed the reef salt company with my batch number on my new pail and was informed that there had been no complaints. However, I went to mix a small amount to test my source water and it foamed up when I put it in the pail of water. I have never seen that before.

 

[CarolynZ]

I don’t know if anyone suggested a ICP test. That’s what I would do first. Just let the aquarium sit until you get the results. I think you have bad salt or water.

I did ICP testing once the deaths started. The only thing strange was Aluminum at 0.0123. Thats a mystery to me and I don't even know if that is at a level that would cause my inverts and sensitive fish to go first and start a chain reaction.

 

[CarolynZ]

I can't contribute much toward the solution of what caused your crash, I was thinking maybe stray voltage, which then caused a chain reaction like someone else suggested.

But I noticed you are really wanting a BTA.

Why not set up a small aio to run until you sort things out? Bubble tips don't need a lot of room, so you wouldn't need to get anything major.

Had a thought. You could always pick up a 10 gallon or something, throw some rock and water from your tank into that, and do the snail test in a separate tank. That way you could determine if your rock is capable of supporting life.

Thanks ImGoingCostal. I'm going to do the rock and snail test in a 5 gal I have. I also have a brand new 40 gal breeder, HOB filter and heater that I was planning on setting up for a QT tank.

 

[CarolynZ]

I really appreciate everyone's input and ideas with this. I am starting to feel less stressed and completely overwhelmed about the whole thing by posting here and getting other people's support. I go to bed comfortable with the idea that I will just tear the tank down, empty it and start over, then wake up in the middle of the night in a panic about that and start to change my mind. LOL. It's not the money. It's the 2 years I already have invested watching the tank mature and stabilize

Things won't move quickly though because when it rains it pours. After two weeks of cleaning sand and doing water changes, I am now having to spend time away from home to care for my elderly mother, who broke her arm. But I will provide updates.

But thank you everyone for taking the time to read through all this and post your thoughts.

 

[Mark Novack]

I'm sorry for your loss. I have had a complete crash before and it hurt badly. The time and money are tangible pains but the bewilderment and nausea of watching one of my pleasures disintegrate was the worst. It took some healing but I'm glad I didn't act out and sell everything. Today my tank is less complex but my fish know me (they follow me, not the person with the yellow food cup, an experiment we tried just a few days ago) and I'm pleased to have a gorgon ventalina that actually grows.

Mark

 

[DeniseAndy]

First, I am so sorry for the losses and the emotional crazy that you have gone through. Since I have redone my tank (built a new one) I have had two incidents of die off in two years and only one from the past 16 years. So, I feel you.

Good luck on how you approach this. I eventually decided, If I had to start over, I would decide what I really wanted and get the perfect environment for those things. It is slow, but getting there. I am seeing changes and results. You will too.

I used Aquavitro Salt for a while and ended up hating it. I went back to Instant Ocean reef Crystals, hated the junk left behind and now use Tropc Marin Reef Pro. Love it so far.

 

[DonTavo27]

You might not have to tear the whole tank down. Inspect everything first. Look around for anything that doesn’t belong In the system.
i wouldn’t be able to give you an answer on the aluminum, but I’m sure someone else can.

 

[DonTavo27]

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium

In this article I will give some details of aluminum in natural seawater, and will discuss the sparse literature on the toxicity of aluminum ions to marine organisms.

reefs.com

 

[WallyB]

WOW. Your carbon acted the same way as my water changes. Letting some rock soak then trying a snail is a good idea. I think I will place some of my rock in my little 5 gal with fresh mixed salt water and try one there. I also can start removing my sand. If in the end I decide to tear the whole thing down, then so be it. Its not like I can rush out and start a rebuild and stock fish right away anyway with the lock downs and business shut down from COVID.

I emailed the reef salt company with my batch number on my new pail and was informed that there had been no complaints. However, I went to mix a small amount to test my source water and it foamed up when I put it in the pail of water. I have never seen that before.

That is super Weird.
I tried all kinds of salts and Never seen a froth like that. Brown crud froth a bit sometimes, but not creamy white like that.

That is a BIG clue. Surfactants make water froth.

Is it from your Sofened water or from the Salt?

I assume this is before you added rock, so it didn't leach out of a rock.
I also assume it was a clean bucket and no residue from anything that made it froth.

Was your salt water bucket a sealed type?

Get some other water (maybe even a bottle of distilled water). Add the salt, and put in a airstone, or whip the water with a a powerhead, to see if it froths.

Try the same with your own water. No salt.

Hope your mom's get's better.

 

[longtimereefer]

I will try to keep this from being long winded. I will try just to include facts and keep the emotion out of it.

My system:

180 gal DT
Basement sump - 150 gal rubbermaid stock tank, external Bashsea Skimmer, 1 GFO reactor, 1 GAF reactor, Bashsea bio reactor (big tall thingy with red plastic beads that look like pasta. Reminds me of a lava lamp and I love to watch it.
5 stage RODI unit (I just added 2 more stages)
Water source is drilled well which is likely spring fed.
2 Kessil Ap700
1 Kessil 160
Apex unit with EB832, 1 dosing pump for Bionic 2 part calcium and magnesium.
Trident unit
How many lbs of live rock: I don't know. A lot. Rock in DT along with extra in sump


Former system:

Used 90 gal DT with sump. Came with aged rock which I used and added some new.

This rock along with some new rock was added to the new 180 gal DT. New sand with handful of old sand from 90 gal was used on set up August 2018.

History: The 180 gal was well stocked with fish. The usual tangs (yellow, tomini, sailfin - all went in together. no issues) 1 fox face, a pair of osc. clowns, coral beauty, royal gramma, 3 anthias, 3 blue green chromis, 3 springeri damsels. 1 blood shrimp, hermit crabs and lots of various snails.

We were struggling to get detectable nutrients so more fish were added: 1 flasher wrasse and 1 long nosed hawk fish November 2019, 1 Bally Lubbocks wrasse and 2 bengai cardinal fish December 2019.

As for corals, a neon green Ausie cabbage leather, a special finger leather, small frag of green kenya tree, 5 mushrooms, 4 florida ricordia, 1 yummy, 1 2-headed duncan and a healthy elegance coral (the light of my life). I also had a small Ausie toadstool frag and 3 rock anemones.
I had been unsuccessful with 2 montipora frags and 1 small acropora. They were purchased in the spring of 2019. Although they had been growing and encrusting, they died that summer when alk spiked to 9 with 0 nutrients. I then changed salts from Red Sea Coral Pro to Aquavitro Salinity.

Now, here is the hard part. I was an absentee tank owner from January to end of March. The owner of the LFS where I buy all my fish, corals and supplies was hired to tend to my tank once a week. My daughter was in charge of making sure I had top up water for the ATO, make the water change water, and feed a little frozen food once a day. I also had an auto feeder that fed 3 times a day.

My fish store guy is very obsessive and would bring his own equipment to check and double check the salinity level of my water change water. He would adjust it as needed. The salt water was made and heated 1 or two days before his scheduled visit. A power head kept it circulating the whole time.

Parameters
January 27 to Feb 3 Alk Min 7.62 Average 7.83 Maximum 8.2
Calcium Min 413 Average 421 Maximum 432
Mag always around 1247
PH Min 7.78 Average 7.86 Maximum 7.96
Temp is always between 78F and 79 F

Red slim had been starting to appear in January. Nothing major. I had my skimmer skimming dry in an effort to increase nutrients. On January 14 my tank guy reported that phosphates were higher than he would like to see them, especially with some red slime. I can't remember the exact number but they were something like 0.2 with a Hanna Checker. Nitrates with salifert were 5. The Duncan coral was not as extended as it should be but everything else looked fine. He dialled in the skimmer to skim a little more wet.

Jan 28 visit: Phophate was 0.00 with hanna checker
nitrates were 2.5 ish
Duncan was more extended and everything else looked good.

Feb 11: Tank looks good
Cyano is less than last week
elegance and rock anemones fed
Phosphate 0.00
nitrate 2.5ish

Here is where is starts to fall apart.
Feb. 18 Alk Minimum 7.88 Average 8.12 Maximum 8.3
calcium minimum 372 Average 402
Magnesium 1247
Salt 0.026
Ph 7.81 Average 7.9 Maximum 8.01
Temp always between 78F and 79F
Phosphates 0.02 with Hanna checker
Nitrates 2.5

The usual skimmer clean and temp and salinity of water change water was checked and a 20% water change was done.

On the morning of February 19 my daughter messaged me that she thought I had a fish that wasn't doing well. It was a chrome that was hanging out in the corner of the aquarium swimming straight up and down.. She said all my fish were "acting weird and not swimming around like crazy when I usually feed them."

5 days later on Feb 24 she removed a dead cardinal fish and saw a dead anthias stuck in the rock work. We also noted that there were 5 other fish missing.
On February 25 my fish guy removed two rotting bodies of anthias from the work work. He did an ammonia test but as luck would have it my ammonia kit was expired. He felt he read a trace of ammonia with an expired salifert kit. We felt maybe a big turbo snail died and perhaps caused an ammonia spike and killed the anthias that were sensitive. And if my clean up crew were short on numbers that why the bodies didn't get eaten. This was just a guess. He did a water change with what water I had there.
On the morning of Feb 26 all the fish were either dead or struggling to breath on the bottom of the tank. My daughter removed the dead fish. I contacted my cousin who went up the net day with salt water from the LFS and removed more dead fish and about 20 big snails. He informed me there were dead bristle worms as well. Ammonia was now 0.5 with a new salifert test kit and nitrite was 0.05.
On February 27th my fish guy did a larger than usual water change with water from his store. At some point I had him unplug the household water softener. We were not sure how to bypass it.
On February 29 my sailfin tang and my yellow tang died. Foxface and 1 clown was left. Both these fish were not expected to live by my daughter as they were in bad shape.
On March 2 the fox face was recovering and ate nori and some frozen. The clown was starting to show interest in food.
March 3, Phosphate 0.02. Ammonia 0.20 before water change with water from LFS
Both fish continued to recover and were eating well over the next week.
On March 10 a water change was done with water made from my house and my aquavitro salinity salt.
The next morning my fox face and clown fish were both dead and dead bristle worms were swirling in the current.
We have since found how to bypass the water softener.

Over the course of those two weeks my parameters did not stray far from what I stated above. Believe me I checked my apex constantly during the day. And watched this all take place from a webcam while feeling totally helpless and frustrated.

I found out that at the end of December my husband had bought the wrong salt for the water softener. I emailed the company and was told that they use a bit of surfactant in their salt that should get flushed out of the water softener when it regenerates. My guess, and this is just a guess, is that it somehow found its way into my water and killed the entire clean up crew and sensitive fish first which lead to an ammonia spike which complicated things further. And each water change after that finished off the already sick fish. Again I have no proof.

I arrived home just before the end of March. I have removed all the dead things I can find in my tank and have moved rock work around to do so. I have vacuumed my sand and moved rock to get behind it. I have changed out 200 gallons of water with Instant Ocean, because nothing has ruled out the salinity salt at this point. I filled a small 5 gal aquarium with water made with my well water through RODI with instant ocean. I put in a couple of test snails and they lived for 2 day, after which I put them in my DT. They died.

What is strange is that my leathers have done wonderfully through all this and have even grown. I have also managed to salve two small pieces of Florida Ricordia.

Sooooooo my question is do I tear this tank down completely and throw away all the rock, drain it and start over again. I have two years of being patient waiting for this tank to mature. Or do I try siphoning out all the sand and doing more water changes and using sacrificial snails as my guide?

Oh ya, a water sample was sent shortly after the fish started dying to MarinLabs for ICP testing. The only pollutant that was noted was Al at 0.0123 mg/l. All other parameters were within range.

I have accepted the loss of life and the loss of $$. But what I am struggling with is where to go from here.

WHAT WOULD YOU ALL DO??

Wow.
1: Incredibly sorry to hear of all this loss.
2: Have you checked for anything rusting or lead based leaching in?
3: Checked for stray voltage? Chances are good it isn't that as im assuming many hands have been in the tank and no ones gotten shocked.
Truthfully at a loss reading all this, sounds though like poisoning of some type, which appears to still be present. May want to try a different water source entirely but if the rock etc has what ever is bad in it now, it will possibly continue to plague you for quite some time. Whatever it is sounds quite potent. Good luck what ever you decide.

 

[CarolynZ]

There is no stray voltage. We checked.

My 2 gyres were each removed one at a time and thoroughly cleaned and replaced before the death started.

After the death, my return pump was making a funny noise so it was removed. My brand new spare pump was put in place at the same time. My return pump was taken apart and a small snail shell was found inside. Nothing else.

I will check the pump that runs my reactors and skimmer.

The froth in the picture is from Salinity. It’s mixing in a food grade 5gal bucket I have used for salt mixing plenty of times. My water softener has been bypassed for the time being, so no it was not mixed in softened water. It frothed as soon as I added it to still water. Dissipated when I put the power head in. I decided not to use it and dumped it out. Since then I changed to IO, which does not froth at all. IO has been mixed with my RODI water and various test snails lived in it in my 5gal as a test of my source water.

Once I am able to spend a couple of days at home I will mix this salt again, bring it to temperature in my 5gal and try another sacrificial snail. If this salt is the cause the snail will likely show signs during acclimation. If the Salinity appears to be toxic I will send a sample away for ICP testing to MarinLabs once they are able to receive mail from overseas again. Though if they were not able to pick up toxins in my tank water I doubt they will find anything.

My instinct is telling me that the death was caused by one of two things.
A) the wrong salt in the household water softener. Or
B) contaminated Salinity

My LFS uses Salinity in their tanks and also in the reef water that they sell. So if my bucket is contaminated then it is my bucket alone as no issues have been reported to Seachem or my LFS.

I have a plan in place for my DT and will do a complete tear down and start over only as a last resort.

I will siphon out the sand bed to start and test a snail in my 5 gal with fresh salt water and as many pieces of rock from DT as will fit. If test snail lives I will just let my tank run fallow for a couple of months and continue with water changes and change out my carbon and gfo on a regular basis. The hair algae I am now experiencing should die out as no nutrients are being added to the system.

After fallow period I will add test snail. If he lives I will go from there. If he dies then it’s a tear down.

 

[CarolynZ]

TEST SNAIL IN SEACHEM AQUAVITRO SALINITY FAILED TERRIBLY.

Well I did the snail test with my Seachem Aquavitro Salinity Salt yesterday around 4:00 pm. I matched SG of 1.026 and temp of 77f in my little 5 gal with that of the LFS invert tank where I picked up the mexican turbo snail. He was placed in the bag just before I arrived and the drive home was 25 min to 30 min. I floated the bag for 15 minutes to temp acclimate then opened the bag and cloths pinned it to the rim of the tank. I had a small juice glass the I had rinsed throughly in RODI water and added 1/2 of that glass to the bag. I waited 15 minutes then adde another 1/2 juice glass to the bag. After the second addition of water the snail released himself from the side of the bag, fell onto his back on the bottom of the bag, squirmed for a bit then withdrew into his shell as far as he could go. I finished my acclimation (45 min to 1 hour), placed the snail in the tank where it remained in the same spot and withdrawn into its shell since yesterday.

The salt was mixed in my 5 gal the day before I picked up the snail and had circulated for approx. 24 hrs. I am now running 7 stages on my RODI unit with separate anion and cation cartridges and 2 mixed DI resin cartridges, and of course a sediment and carbon prefilter. The TDS is definitely 0. Again I had strange foaming when I added the salt to the water. I know a lot of things can come into play with the death of sensitive inverts, but I had absolutely no issues with IO salt and my test snails, which were acclimated exactly the same way. The former snails did not die until I tired to acclimate them into my DT.

The LFS store uses Salinity salt so in reality the snail should not have needed any acclimination.

I had been so focussed on the snails that died previously when I tried to get them into my DT that I had forgotten about the 2 sea urchins that went in at the same time. These two sea urchins have remained alive for about 2 weeks now. Not only are they alive, they are decorating themselves with whatever they can find and are grazing I guess that this is a good sign that I may be getting my DT under control, except for the hair algae that I am now battling.

I have the majority of sand removed from my DT now with a bit more to go. I will give it a few weeks after the last of it is removed and try some test snails in the DT. Fish will not be added for months too come.