Explain the claims

[Terence]

Disclaimer (and not proud of it): I did not take chemistry in high school. I did not take it in college. I consider myself a fairly smart person, but this is one area I like to leave it to the experts to help me understand things.

I just read an ad in the back of Coral magazine where the manufacturer made some claims regarding their calcium additive. They seemed amazing. I thought of no better place than here to present it and let RHF explain to me how it can be true - from a chemistry perspective. I even read the patent.

I am not saying this is not a great product. In fact the ad was very compelling. So, for the benefit of all of us smart (but not in chemistry) reefkeepers, I would appreciate if you could do as you always do and boil this down for us, bullet by bullet, with your thoughts.

Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well, this is tough to explain as I don't think it does what it claims.

The fine aragonite in this and other similar products (Kent Liquid Reactor, Aragamight, Purple Up) cannot dissolve in normal reef aquarium water.

So it cannot supply calcium and alkalinity to a coral unless somehow it is dissolved in a low pH environment, like down in a sand bed. But int aht location, all aragonite (sand, rock, etc.) will dissolve.

Some folks think these products may help with coralline algae growth. I've only heard of one plausible explanation how that might happen, but I do not know if it is true.

In this scenario, the fine sand lands on surfaces, and stays there, like other tiny bits of detritus. Since it is a fresh calcium carboante surface not yet coated with algae and other creatures, coralline might colonize it to get a start. Plausible? Perhaps? Likely? Not that likely, IMO, but that's jsut speculation on my part.

However, the aragonite in this product, when still suspended in the tank water, will lead to false high readings for calcium and alkalinity because it will dissolve in the low pH environments of these two tests. So it may even seem like it is supplementing the water with calcium and alkalinity, when in fact it is not.

As to the trace elements added in this product, those might be useful, or not, depending on whether your tank actually needs them.

Years ago, when Chris Brightwell (well, we assume it was him, but he wouldn't identify himself, IIRC) represented Kent on Reef Central, I challenged him extensively on the utility of Kent Liquid Reactor and debated the chemistry with him, and asked for an example of anyone who kept a hard coral reef tank with this type of product as the only means of calcium and alkalinity supplementation. None were ever produced, and I don't think one ever could.

FWIW, none of iodine, strontium or magnesium are trace elements in seawater, regardless of what they call them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I give more details on this sort of analysis here, including an experiment of mine:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Calcium Carbonate As A Supplement ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2002/chem.htm

 

[jason2459]

I describe purple up and products like it as expensive sand and magnesium with a few trace elements.

 

[Terence]

I understood the approach after reading the patent. And yes, my first question was how does the fine particle aragonite help in a high pH water system. But then I interpreted part of the patent that said this was actually intended to end up on the surface of the organisms and somehow converted there. And I went Huh?

So:

First bullet. Basically it says this is just like Purple Up with other trace elements added. OK. But does it work?

Second Bullet: It contains aragonite, the stuff corals are made of. So? It also contains water. Where is the proven science that having actual micron sized aragonite improves calcium supplementation or uptake by the organisms? Do you know of any Randy?

Third Bullet: Do other calcium additives usually have sugars or EDTAs in them (whatever those are)?

Fourth Bullet: It replaces the normal multi-product recipe? Does this mean that if I dose this it will raise my Calcium AND Alkalinity to the levels necessary for proper reefkeeping? And if so, how can it be concentrated without precipitating? Totally confused on this one.

Fifth Bullet: Unlike others, it contains carbonate. See my question on bullet #4.

Sixth Bullet: Do you feel it could have levels of these that might be in the right proportions such that other supplementation would not be necessary in the average reef aquarium when added in the proportions of this calcium supplement?

Seventh Bullet: How is this one possible. Again, I really am no expert on chemistry, but does this mean that there is a 3.4% concentration of calcium ions in a 5ml cap? And, how can they claim you cannot overdose?

I have no personal dog in this fight as my company does not manufacture, sell, or recommend any additives products. I am truly coming at this from the hobbyist perspective and want to understand it better.

 

[biom]

Patent: http://patents.justia.com/patent/7565883
Good reading about aragonite and calcite solubility: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0016703780901787

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I've not ever seen any suggestion that corals can take up particulate calcium carbonate and dissolve it to obtain calcium and alkalinity. That's doesn't mean they cannot or that there isn't a scientific paper somewhere that demonstrates it, but I'v e not seen it and Kent didn't supply it when I debated them publicly.

Do other calcium additives usually have sugars or EDTAs in them (whatever those are)?

Not usually. Some all-in-one products are calcium acetate. Salifert has one.

It replaces the normal multi-product recipe? Does this mean that if I dose this it will raise my Calcium AND Alkalinity to the levels necessary for proper reefkeeping? And if so, how can it be concentrated without precipitating? Totally confused on this one.

If it raised calcium, it would raise alkalinity, since calcium carbonate dissolving gives both.


Do you feel it could have levels of these that might be in the right proportions such that other supplementation would not be necessary in the average reef aquarium when added in the proportions of this calcium supplement?

Dissolving calcium carbonate is the right ratio, hence the use of CaCO3/CO2 reactors.

How is this one possible. Again, I really am no expert on chemistry, but does this mean that there is a 3.4% concentration of calcium ions in a 5ml cap? And, how can they claim you cannot overdose?

A bit misleading, but the units were ppm (parts per million). The value is the same if it is a single tiny crystal, or a whole barge full, since it is like a percentage.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I understood the approach after reading the patent. And yes, my first question was how does the fine particle aragonite help in a high pH water system. But then I interpreted part of the patent that said this was actually intended to end up on the surface of the organisms and somehow converted there. And I went Huh?ntains water. Where is the proven science that having actual micron sized aragonite improves calcium supplementation or uptake by the organisms? Do you know of any Randy?
.

Perhaps this is not their only patent, but it is also surprisingly useless (IMO).

All of the claims require

"a first dry component consisting essentially of aragonite particles provided in amounts between about 50% to about 54% by weight based on the total weight of the dry components,"

Why would they have such a narrow range on the amount of aragonite present? Presumably there is prior art preventing a wider range, but one need only move outside that range for this patent to not apply.

Since this patent was filed at 4 years after I published a review of other products with fine aragonite already on the market, they were probably hemmed in by existing products.

 

[Terence]

I've not ever seen any suggestion that corals can take up particulate calcium carbonate and dissolve it to obtain calcium and alkalinity. That's doesn't mean they cannot or that there isn't a scientific paper somewhere that demonstrates it, but I'v e not seen it and Kent didn't supply it when I debated them publicly.

This is the key basis of the claim though, right? That these particles are put in suspension, a certain percentage connect with organisms, and then their "biofilm" decomposes the aragonite. This means that calcium levels rising depends on how much actually connects with biofilm, how fast it decomposes, and if it (the organism) plucks it out right there and absorbs it or if it is released back into the water column, right?

It replaces the normal multi-product recipe? Does this mean that if I dose this it will raise my Calcium AND Alkalinity to the levels necessary for proper reefkeeping? And if so, how can it be concentrated without precipitating? Totally confused on this one.

If it raised calcium, it would raise alkalinity, since calcium carbonate dissolving gives both.

I guess the ultimate question here is could it possibly replace the other method, and if so, in what volumes would be necessary to accomplish that. (assuming that the dissolving of the aragonite on the surfaces is not 100% efficient - some rests on other surfaces or is somehow filtered out)

Do you feel it could have levels of these that might be in the right proportions such that other supplementation would not be necessary in the average reef aquarium when added in the proportions of this calcium supplement?

Dissolving calcium carbonate is the right ratio, hence the use of CaCO3/CO2 reactors.

I think you misunderstood. This question was regarding the other trace elements, not calcium carbonate.

How is this one possible. Again, I really am no expert on chemistry, but does this mean that there is a 3.4% concentration of calcium ions in a 5ml cap? And, how can they claim you cannot overdose?

A bit misleading, but the units were ppm (parts per million). The value is the same if it is a single tiny crystal, or a whole barge full, since it is like a percentage.

But they tell us that it has 170,000ppm in a capful (~5-6ml usually). That is how I made the percentage claim.

 

[Terence]

I thought the same thing on the claims on the patent. It was the rest of the explanations on the patent that raised my BS detector. Not that biofilm could not possibly break down the aragonite, but whether or not it could do it in a volume that would matter.

 

[biom]

Second Bullet: It contains aragonite, the stuff corals are made of. So? It also contains water. Where is the proven science that having actual micron sized aragonite improves calcium supplementation or uptake by the organisms? Do you know of any Randy?

I will try to answer this one although it is not proven science but my personal experience. I'm dosing almost every day very fine powdered CaCO3 in my tank because I'm using it as flocculant. In the same time I'm using regular two part for Ca/Alk supplementation. I never witnessed any significant change in Ca/alk readings when started CaCO3 dosing or when stopped for about one month. There were no need to adjust daily dosage of two part.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I did not read the whole patent, but one need not have evidence of a mechanism if one is just hypothesizing how it may work (which is very common in patents; many of mine have hypothesized mechanisms without evidence).

There is no specific trace element ratio to calcium consumption that one can point to, say, calcium to iron consumption in a reef tank since they are taken up and added by a variety of different mechanisms which will have different ratios. Any product claiming this will just be aiming for an "average" reef tank, and no products reveal their ratio that I have ever seen.

"But they tell us that it has 170,000ppm in a capful (~5-6ml usually). That is how I made the percentage claim."

Pure Aragonite (no magnesium etc. in it) is 40% calcium by weight, or 400,000 ppm. That is true regardless of how much of it you have. So it is 400,000 ppm in a capful, a shovel full, or a barge full.

 

[biom]

Fifth Bullet: Unlike others, it contains carbonate. See my question on bullet #4.

Even if accept that we are living in different Universe in which aragonite is "highly soluble"(from patent: Aragonite is not only highly soluble in seawater but remains soluble despite the presence of dissolved orthophophates, which hinder, and finally prevent the dissolution of other forms of calcium carbonate, such as calcite. ), even then their product will not be balanced source of calcium and alkalinity because calcium carbonate in it is only about 50%, the other 50% are Calcium chloride which will add calcium but not carbonate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Fifth Bullet: Unlike others, it contains carbonate. See my question on bullet #4.

Even if accept that we are living in different Universe in which aragonite is "highly soluble"(from patent: Aragonite is not only highly soluble in seawater but remains soluble despite the presence of dissolved orthophophates, which hinder, and finally prevent the dissolution of other forms of calcium carbonate, such as calcite. .

That's hilarious!

 

[Terence]

Fifth Bullet: Unlike others, it contains carbonate. See my question on bullet #4.

Even if accept that we are living in different Universe in which aragonite is "highly soluble"(from patent: Aragonite is not only highly soluble in seawater but remains soluble despite the presence of dissolved orthophophates, which hinder, and finally prevent the dissolution of other forms of calcium carbonate, such as calcite. ), even then their product will not be balanced source of calcium and alkalinity because calcium carbonate in it is only about 50%, the other 50% are Calcium chloride which will add calcium but not carbonate.

This is the part that I could not resolve in my head. If aragonite is 40% calcium, and the solution is 50% Aragonite, 49% Calcium Chloride, and 1% other trace, then that means there is about 69% Calcium Ions to <=60% carbonate. But that ratio is even worse if the dissolving capacity of the "biofilm" to breakdown the aragonite is less than 100% efficient.

From what you guys have put forward, at least the bullet saying this "one bottle replaces the typical multi-product recipe favored by advanced hobbyists for successful coral skeletal growth" could only be a true claim if "replaces" did not assume doing so with equal or near-equal efficacy.

This is sad. It is one thing to push a product that claims to help coraline growth, but for something like this where your reef requires it, I have no patience. I hope the come on here and defend these claims themselves. I will at least give that benefit of the doubt, for now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It is certainly true that if it is mostly aragonite plus calcium chloride (the patent claims that, but does the product itself?) then it cannot be a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive without a lot of additional alkalinity in it somehow, and the patent, at least, does not allow for that based on the percentages claimed.

 

[Terence]

Well it would have to be in the form of aragonite wouldn't it? It could not be too concentrated of a mix of suspended carbonate and calcium with precipitation in the bottle, could it?

 

[alanjeffery]

Just another example of why we shouldn't believe the colourful glossy ads that make claims that are not backed by science.
Take a look at the amount of "additives" that are available on most main web shops. Its usually the largest section and growing with new products and ranges.
Theres a reason for that, ask yourselves why

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well it would have to be in the form of aragonite wouldn't it? It could not be too concentrated of a mix of suspended carbonate and calcium with precipitation in the bottle, could it?

It couldn't have appreciable additional alkalinity aside from the aragonite without organics or without the water being present.