Explain to me DOA in bag

mrcoffee2

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Hey,

This is really a question to people who sell corals.

I was hoping some one could tell me how the following phrase works? (DOA in bag within 1 hr of getting the coral)

I don't get how you can say DOA within one hour... I have recieved coral that hasnt opened up for hours due to stress from shipping. Some people say DOA within 3 days, now that seems reasonable...

Is this term fair? It definately protects the seller but what about the buyer? Besides putting it under your lights for an hour in their bag and hoping it opens up how do you determine if it really is DOA besides the obvious?

Just looking for everyones opinions on the matter.
 
As a buyer you should understand the risk involved with shipping a live animal and the stress it causes. I buy mostly sticks online so usually if it's DOA, you can smell that it hasn't made it and it has lost all it's skin. The one hour rule also applies so that the package doesn't sit on your front porch in the baking sun or freezing winter doing more harm to the already stressed coral. Most shippers that I've dealt with require a signature which to me is the only way to work honestly. That way you know when the shipment was taking in by the customer and a timeline is documented so that they can't come back hours later and say something is wrong. When it could of been the customers wrong doing by leaving the coral out for a period of time, improper acclimation....
 
I understand protecting the seller, but some just don't have the ability to have someone sign. I work from 6:30 till ? Monday through Friday. So does the wife. Having someone there to sign, means I don't order.

Now I take into consideration the temps outside as well. It is foolish of ME to order a bunch of frags or a fish, have it delivered by 10 am, and sit outside till I get home in extreme heat or cold. Either I watch the current temps and play to my advantage or don't order.

Usually if the frag is in good condition it will pull through, if it doesn't it is usually my fault for acclimation or parameters.
 
As a buyer you should understand the risk involved with shipping a live animal and the stress it causes. I buy mostly sticks online so usually if it's DOA, you can smell that it hasn't made it and it has lost all it's skin. The one hour rule also applies so that the package doesn't sit on your front porch in the baking sun or freezing winter doing more harm to the already stressed coral. Most shippers that I've dealt with require a signature which to me is the only way to work honestly. That way you know when the shipment was taking in by the customer and a timeline is documented so that they can't come back hours later and say something is wrong. When it could of been the customers wrong doing by leaving the coral out for a period of time, improper acclimation....

Yes I agree there is a lot of stress when shipping. Signing is a great way to receive the coral. I go one step further by telling the distribution center to hold my package when it comes in. That way I can pick it up immediately instead of waiting for it to be delivered.

My question is more so how it works I suppose. I want to understand why this term is in place and what problems happened to put it in place... Here is an example.

I see a coral on the forums for sale. It happens to be a high end zoa. The seller states the DOA in bag 1 hr rule and I accept the terms.

The next day I get the coral. As soon as it comes in I place the bag on top of my tank to see if it will open.

1 hr goes by and the zoa does not open. Is my zoa now DOA? If it is DOA and the seller agrees to replace it, what happens if it ends up opening up 6-8 hrs later? Is it still DOA?

The reason I ask is because I plan to sell in the future and I want to make sure I do it fairly. I honestly see a 3 day grace period as the best way to go because corals can take days to settle in and open up.

*I feel if the seller does the work of communicating with the buyer appropriately you can get a good vibe on whether or not the coral is going to a good place, and from there you can make the decision on whether to sell or not.*

IMHO and please don't strike me down sellers! The doa 1 hr in bag rule seems lazy... I am hoping you guys can give me some opposing views.
 
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I think it would be impossible to really tell if something was dead inside the shipping bag...the DOA within one hour and you can't take it out is a bit ridiculous

I get that shipping coral is very risky, but it is just as risky for the buyer paying hundreds of dollars and 2 days later the coral dies/is covered in pests or whatever

I think you should give someone at least 24 hours and if the coral opens you are good but should provide a picture to the seller...if the coral doesn't open, you should extend the refund time and stay in contact just in case it dies
 
I think you should give someone at least 24 hours and if the coral opens you are good but should provide a picture to the seller...if the coral doesn't open, you should extend the refund time and stay in contact just in case it dies

Interesting that could work. However if you state DOA within 24 hrs then you are going against what you stated in the first place. I can see that getting messy.
 
True...I have been subject to corals not making it but then again, I do not pay ridiculous prices for stuff either

I honestly would NEVER pay $500 for one polyp, or hundreds for several...prices are getting out of hand and if you are offering a rare zoanthids for almost a grand, then you should have a good warranty plan in place and not the DOA in bag
 
all it takes is one person ordering a bunch of deepwater SPS corals and dipping them overzealously to make you understand the 1 hr deal. There are a number of variables involved but feedback will tell you a lot about a person. Most that ship coral can be googled/searched and researched and I always suggest doing your homework. From a seller standpoint it's best to promise less and give more depending on circumstances IMO.
 
True...I have been subject to corals not making it but then again, I do not pay ridiculous prices for stuff either

I honestly would NEVER pay $500 for one polyp, or hundreds for several...prices are getting out of hand and if you are offering a rare zoanthids for almost a grand, then you should have a good warranty plan in place and not the DOA in bag

I agree with you. That is crazy to spend that much money on a 1hr doa term
 
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There really are more sellers that get the shaft then buyers. I think it's good to have this in place but I think it should require a picture of the coral sent immediately along with the packing manifest. This should be done within a few hours along with a complete description on dipping methods etc. This would enable the seller to make a determination and sometimes maybe no refund but instead a percentage off the next order and maybe a few freebies. The buyer should be held accountable as well I think.
 
I will not order from places that are only 1hr DOA. It needs to be at least 24-48hr before I will order. Couple of years ago I bought some coral online and the vendor (pretty well known) didn't put in heat packs despite it being really cold. When I got the order I put a temp probe in the water, it was in the 50's. I took a pic and sent that to the vendor within 1hr or signing. The coral looked like crap, but because the tissue hadn't totally fallen off yet they wouldn't give me a refund. Of course that stuff was doomed, despite a careful temp acclimation they died hours later, but because they were not bare skeleton when they arrived I couldn't get a refund even keeping the vendor updated with pics.

Lesson learned. 24hr shipping promise or I wont buy for coral.
 
The day of the honest seller and honest buyer is unfortunately a rare thing to find these days. If sellers were all honest, sending out very healthy, healed specimens the risk is dramatically lower than shipping fresh cut frags or newly acquired livestock. Some people are really good at this and others are on the other end of the spectrum. On the other end though, some buyers are just looking for their next freebie and that is just plain dishonest and wrong. A good vendor will take care of a good buyer and make a lasting relationship if the situation is handled well.

When buying something alive the BUYER needs to realize that things that are typically in the OCEAN should be removed from this stagnant environment as soon as possible. If this means taking a longer lunch break or a personal day from work to accept the package and get these creatures into a better environment, then so be it. Letting UPS/FedEx leave the package on my steps and waiting for me to come home is a horrible way to treat the living things just purchased. Some may get lucky with that method, but it is FAR from ideal. These packages have fragile creatures in them and we need to treat them like they are alive and matter, not just some sticks in a tank.

Regarding the guarantees, there are some ways to have this work well. First, inspect the corals in the bags when they arrive. Is the water cloudy? Do the bags feel excessively hot or cold? Has the coral fallen off the mount whether that be a plug or rock? Can you visually see any recession on the coral while it is in the bag? If you answered yes to ANY of these questions, take clear pictures of the corals while they are still in the bags. Place them next to a clock so the time the picture was taken is on the photo. Place the bags in your sump to float for some temperature acclimation. While temp acclimating, immediately call or send an email with your concerns to the vendor you purchased from and ask what they would like you to do with the concerned corals. If email attach the images. If you receive anything back, follow the vendor's instructions. If you hear nothing, progress with acclimation and dipping procedures and add to the tank for better observation...

For the seller, they cannot predict every and all issue you may run into. They do not know about your aquarium or your equipment. They have no idea if you have a 125G healthy full reef or a goldfish bowl with high nitrates or worse FRESHWATER... You are ordering a product and they will assume that you are an informed customer and are making the best decisions possible for the suitability of these animals. They will also assume you are informed in the proper acclimation techniques for the purchase and what can and cannot be dipped. So with that said, if there is excessively stressed corals in the bags, you should know what to look for and how to communicate it. The guarantee is there as a way to show you they guarantee their shipping procedures. After it is at your house and in your tank, they have ZERO control of the care and husbandry their animal has been placed into. However, many vendors I have worked with, if you express concern while the corals are still in the bag and they can see what you were concerned about, they will do their best to work with you.

So in the end if the "1 hour DOA In Bag" guarantee bothers you, then I would suggest shopping elsewhere. However if you are comfortable that your tank is well and your acclimation techniques are proper this level guarantee is perfectly fine as you will know things aren't well while it is in the bag.
 
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Very good responses on both of those and so sorry you had this experience. What if it required signing for delivery but you open it and inspect it before accepting?
 
I do think 24 hour shipping promise is not outrageous. I think it's actually a pretty fair offer but I am not a frag seller but a tank guy so its slightly different and I dont know what would work best for both parties.
 

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