Fed up with Apex

[Thales]

This is very spot on with how I feel. And a similar reason I went with Apex 2016 when I upgraded from the Classic. I did not go GHL at the time as their presence was minimal here in the US compared to Apex. And of course I would love to support a US company.
It may be a generational thing, but I miss the days of building to last, and customer appreciation.
I have no doubt that I may be kicking and rolling in a hornet’s nest by jumping with another company’s product. Also with the amount of time and possible impact it could have on my system. Replumbing, re wiring, all of it. I just need some stable hardware that will work as described.

I’m with you about built to last but most people don’t want to pay for that. Most want inexpensive but don’t seem to get that that might also mean disposable.

 

[ShawnSaucier]

It never fails. They say don't make any changes to your tank just before a vacay, but even if you abstain from doing so, something always goes catty-whampus on it own, just as you are walking out the door.

Unfortunately for me, every change I do is before a trip. My job has me traveling 8-9 months out of the year

 

[road_runner]

I’m with you about built to last but most people don’t want to pay for that. Most want inexpensive but don’t seem to get that that might also mean disposable.

Hence the diligence is important and the more people know about what's out there is better. This market is not ruled by one vendor...

 

[Thales]

Hence the diligence is important and the more people know about what's out there is better. This market is not ruled by one vendor...

I have a problem with the word better because there is no metric - it usually means "what I like right now". Most stuff isn't really better by any metric, just a different set of challenges. It is fine to like one product more and to have reasons for that, but the idea of 'better' makes me squint.

 

[MarineDepot]

There are and most of them are using the older hardware.

I’d happily replace my newer Apex with GHL, but I can’t find it. BRS doesn’t carry it. Marinedepot is always out when I check. I’ve not seen them anywhere else, probably because Neptune likely negotiates “exclusives” with anyone carrying their stuff so that those companies can’t carry the competition too.

Hi Paul, which specific GHL product were you looking for? We have a few in stock currently but we are expecting our next shipments of the out of stock products shortly.

-Steven

 

[road_runner]

I have a problem with the word better because there is no metric - it usually means "what I like right now". Most stuff isn't really better by any metric, just a different set of challenges. It is fine to like one product more and to have reasons for that, but the idea of 'better' makes me squint.

Agreed better is subjective.
I disagree a bit about the metrics.. There are metrics.
When you see current rating of a power bar, thate a metric
When you get a feature without having to pay extra that's a metric
When you have less wires..that's a metric.
Price comparison against features..that's a metric.
I agree with you that there are many metrics or things that matter to one but not to other..
that's why sharing openions, data and self diligence is the way

 

[ShawnSaucier]

I’m with you about built to last but most people don’t want to pay for that. Most want inexpensive but don’t seem to get that that might also mean disposable.

Well let me just say that most products or a large majority of products are built with a disposable mindset unfortunately.
Built cheaper, charge more and make it a hassle to fix. Which leads to a ton of waste, hence the global issues we are dealing with. But that’s a whole other topic.
Again to me it’s getting a reliable product out of the box, and if there is an issue, having the support from said company to fix it and not a big run around or push until you loose your temper.
Just got a missed call from Apex, waiting for a call back. Obviously this massive post has attracted some attention. Will see how the discussion goes, if it happens..

 

[tastyfish]

Ok, so I’ve been an Apex user for 4-5 years and also GHL.

It’s easy to bash, but although I ensure Neptune hear my frustrations as a customer, I’ll also praise when they do something right.

I’ve not had a terrible experience with Support, they’ve always been helpful, and never had a really bad experience, but I’ve only communicated via email.

Replacing a faulty DOS was a little fraught, but that was as they were thinking as a US company and forgot about their local distribution providing RMA. This is a symptom if only thinking about the US, and really could have been a problem avoided, for example:

“It’s a hardware issue, but don’t worry, we’ll issue a RMA authorisation to your local distributor so you can get a quick turnaround on a replacement”

Vs

“It’s a hardware issue. Use this RMA number to ship to Neptune in the US. Once we receive your unit we will diagnose and either repair or replace in a few weeks...”


So, the good:

- Neptune were first to market with a decent web interface

- First to market with Alk, Ca and Mg monitoring and control with Trident

- Apex Classic hasn’t gone wrong in 4 years!

- Great usability and community

- Compatability without relying on Windows software


The bad:

- Warranty sucks (unless you make a fuss) see above

- Lifespan of pumps very questionable (PMUP & WAV as examples)

- Reliability of some modules very bad: AFK, AFS are examples, as are the WAVs, which are great pumps, but often fail at 2 years. My DOS units have failed twice in 2 years (one pump failure, requiring replacement of unit and one head failure after minimal use)

- Price vs quality: Very poor (look at the AFS. Original product £30. Neptune’s price: £140)

- Too many add on modules vs GHL which has them built in

- Manufacturing quality: Very poor compared to GHL. Even down to no heat transfer paste between transistors and heatsinks

- False info on Adverts and specs. This has been a big issue in Europe, where many like myself, bought the Apex over GHL on the basis of soft switching and power monitoring and lately the 2016 with no EB832 (still no power monitoring and no 1LINK).

- Pricing: Seem to be the victim of Trump Tariffs which massively inflate the price outside of the US, but strangely don’t affect other vendors to the same extent, or feature in import/export duty lists against relevant commodity codes. (Price inflation by 170% in some cases)

- Built for US market with little care for customers outside of US (vs GHL who offer the same capabilities for all markets and build with all voltages in mind from the design stage).


When I bought the Apex, GHL lacked key features like the web interface (ignoring the fact that I thought I was getting power monitoring and soft switching).

Now, GHL have advanced further and are certainly a much more level player with, in my experience, more reliable hardware and key features such as current detection to alert to faulty equipment, where Neptune have made no commitment to offer it to anyone outside of the US.

If I was looking to buy a tank controller, I would certainly start by listing the equipment I had and what I planned, then mapping how I wanted to control it and then speccing our the compatibility and modules required to achieve it.

We haven’t mentioned eKoral Pro, but if in the US, I’d also have a look, but GHL and Neptune are certainly more comparable now than they were 4-5 years ago.

 

[MnFish1]

- Pricing: Seem to be the victim of Trump Tariffs which massively inflate the price outside of the US, but strangely don’t affect other vendors to the same extent, or feature in import/export duty lists against relevant commodity codes. (Price inflation by 170% in some cases)

Most of what you write seems true - I wish you would do the same for GHL (ie list the pros and cons for GHL)- as I'm considering changing from Neptune to something else - if there is a reason.

I do find it interesting that you praise the Apex for not having failed in 4 years - but criticise Neptune for very poor manufacturing quality?

I dont think pricing has anything to do with the tariffs - weren't only some things affected? - I would think it has more to do with the weakness of the Euro and the Strength of the dollar.

Im not a big Neptune fan - but - it seems like some of your statements are written as fact - are they merely your experience (I'm asking sincerely) - or is it common knowledge that certain pumps really do fail after 2 years (I was not aware).

As to the warranty - its the same in the US - if I have a problem with my apex -I have to send it to Neptune to diagnose - I cant return it to my local merchant and get a new one. If something is broken 'right out of the box' - perhaps thats possible - but I dont think this is evidence that Neptune 'doesnt care' about Non-US customers.

 

[road_runner]

Most of what you write seems true - I wish you would do the same for GHL (ie list the pros and cons for GHL)- as I'm considering changing from Neptune to something else - if there is a reason.

I do find it interesting that you praise the Apex for not having failed in 4 years - but criticise Neptune for very poor manufacturing quality?

I dont think pricing has anything to do with the tariffs - weren't only some things affected? - I would think it has more to do with the weakness of the Euro and the Strength of the dollar.

Im not a big Neptune fan - but - it seems like some of your statements are written as fact - are they merely your experience (I'm asking sincerely) - or is it common knowledge that certain pumps really do fail after 2 years (I was not aware).

As to the warranty - its the same in the US - if I have a problem with my apex -I have to send it to Neptune to diagnose - I cant return it to my local merchant and get a new one. If something is broken 'right out of the box' - perhaps thats possible - but I dont think this is evidence that Neptune 'doesnt care' about Non-US customers.

Apex classic controller is solid.
But what has fail with me are modules. Sensors, probs and equipments like dos, wav and cor have poor quality..well documented..
I conpeltly relate to the review above btw.
The pros is what made me switch to apex 4 years ago.
But to me they trended down and left a vacuum I think GHL is filling nicley.

 

[MnFish1]

Apex classic controller is solid.
But what has fail with me are modules. Sensors, and equipments lile dos, wav and cor have poor quality..well documented..

Thanks - I also have the Apex classic - and have never had a problem. On another tank I have a 2016 - I cannot say it hasn't failed - but I bought one of the first - and think that was the problem. I do not use wav (anymore) - or the dos or cor.

 

[road_runner]

Thanks - I also have the Apex classic - and have never had a problem. On another tank I have a 2016 - I cannot say it hasn't failed - but I bought one of the first - and think that was the problem. I do not use wav (anymore) - or the dos or cor.

I still use apex classic on my frag tank....hopefully will switch it also soon, just need to recover a bit ha ha

 

[ShawnSaucier]

Just got off the phone with an Apex rep. They have been following this post since the beginning and I guess it’s creeped over into the social inter webs also.
It was a very productive and well spoken apology/ discussion about the issues I’ve stated I’ve had. They have offered their help to sort out my issues in a very respectful way.
Through the discussion we touched on many of the aspects that I and several of you have discussed about the customer service and treatment that has been received. It was stated that there has been a large amount of changes that have been implemented and taking place over the last 6 or so months due to so many of the same complaints. So it’s not that we are not being heard. But with such a large user base worldwide, it’s a bit difficult to attend to each individual.
In my situation, I had wiped my hands of dealing with the company sometime ago, so have not spoken to a rep in close to a year. And the rep understood my stance on this.
Needless to say, I appreciate that the company has reached out to make things better and not to stop me from making another purchase, but to protect the investment that I have already made.
Besides the “fanboys and fanhaters” this post has stated some great points from either side of the controller market. We need more information and data on what is out there.
As I stated in the beginning, I did not want to bash a company that has been successful for so many, just not for me or my experience. I appreciate the frank and open discussion with the rep from the company and hope that my experience and thoughts will changed in the near future. At least an effort is being made and I find it commendable. Which is why I am willing to at least attempt and work with them.

 

[shred5]

What concerns me about allot of the controllers and other equipment is the prices are getting out of hand.
I have been in the hobby a very long time so I have gotten to know allot of players in the hobby like authors, equipment manufacturers and different stores.
Some are getting real concerned that our hobby is in for a collapse.
With Indonesia and Hawaii gone the prices of fish and coral are moving up. A allot of LFS that are saltwater only are concerned or thinking of closing shop. If the economy starts to slow and there are other factors.
Equipment manufacturers need to start worrying about prices because it can be the straw that breaks allot of our backs. Hobby is getting expensive at a much faster pace than ever.
I know there is still GSP.
I know for me and my fish and invert aquaculture system prices are getting hard to swallow. I have been in the hobby 30+ years and sometimes think of quiting where I never did before. I genuinely care about the future of the hobby that has been such a huge part of my life for so long..

I like tech and I like my systems on a controller but with the demise of the DA lite and now the Apex JR it is not feasible so I am thinking of dropping all my controllers totally. I do not want all my systems on one controller either. That would mean one little failure takes out allot of tanks.
Even if you look At Neptune and look at the price jump from their cheapest system from a few years ago to now is a pretty jump big. There cheapest controller now is as expensive as the most expensive controller was. What did the Apex JR sell for less than 250.00?

Not only that the equipment is not as good as it used to be, the problems are killing me. I just bought a ATO and in one week the pump went out. I bought a tester and it does not work. I bought two lights and they wont go into master and slave and the hanging bracket broke before even putting them up. Even BRS support is getting worse and I understand people take advantage of it but twice now they send me to a manufacturer who does nothing. I have ATO where they want me to send back a 20 dollar pump well I just bought a new pump because taking off of work and paying the high shipping would have cost me more.

 

[road_runner]

Just got off the phone with an Apex rep. They have been following this post since the beginning and I guess it’s creeped over into the social inter webs also.
It was a very productive and well spoken apology/ discussion about the issues I’ve stated I’ve had. They have offered their help to sort out my issues in a very respectful way.
Through the discussion we touched on many of the aspects that I and several of you have discussed about the customer service and treatment that has been received. It was stated that there has been a large amount of changes that have been implemented and taking place over the last 6 or so months due to so many of the same complaints. So it’s not that we are not being heard. But with such a large user base worldwide, it’s a bit difficult to attend to each individual.
In my situation, I had wiped my hands of dealing with the company sometime ago, so have not spoken to a rep in close to a year. And the rep understood my stance on this.
Needless to say, I appreciate that the company has reached out to make things better and not to stop me from making another purchase, but to protect the investment that I have already made.
Besides the “fanboys and fanhaters” this post has stated some great points from either side of the controller market. We need more information and data on what is out there.
As I stated in the beginning, I did not want to bash a company that has been successful for so many, just not for me or my experience. I appreciate the frank and open discussion with the rep from the company and hope that my experience and thoughts will changed in the near future. At least an effort is being made and I find it commendable. Which is why I am willing to at least attempt and work with them.

No one is bashing anyone. The thread is nice and respectful. People sharing openions. Experince and whatever data they think they have. You should not feel guilty or anything.
These forums are for this exact purpose..

 

[ShawnSaucier]

What concerns me about allot of the controllers and other equipment is the prices are getting out of hand.
I have been in the hobby a very long time so I have gotten to know allot of players in the hobby like authors, equipment manufacturers and different stores.
Some are getting real concerned that our hobby is in for a collapse.
With Indonesia and Hawaii gone the prices of fish and coral are moving up. A allot of LFS that are saltwater only are concerned or thinking of closing shop. If the economy starts to slow and there are other factors.
Equipment manufacturers need to start worrying about prices because it can be the straw that breaks allot of our backs. Hobby is getting expensive at a much faster pace than ever.
I know there is still GSP.
I know for me and my fish and invert aquaculture system prices are getting hard to swallow. I have been in the hobby 30+ years and sometimes think of quiting where I never did before. I genuinely care about the future of the hobby that has been such a huge part of my life for so long..

I like tech and I like my systems on a controller but with the demise of the DA lite and now the Apex JR it is not feasible so I am thinking of dropping all my controllers totally. I do not want all my systems on one controller either. That would mean one little failure takes out allot of tanks.
Even if you look At Neptune and look at the price jump from their cheapest system from a few years ago to now is a pretty jump big. There cheapest controller now is as expensive as the most expensive controller was. What did the Apex JR sell for less than 250.00?

Not only that the equipment is not as good as it used to be, the problems are killing me. I just bought a ATO and in one week the pump went out. I bought a tester and it does not work. I bought two lights and they wont go into master and slave and the hanging bracket broke before even putting them up. Even BRS support is getting worse and I understand people take advantage of it but twice now they send me to a manufacturer who does nothing. I have ATO where they want me to send back a 20 dollar pump well I just bought a new pump because taking off of work and paying the high shipping would have cost me more.

I have 20 years in the hobby, and these are some of my concerns too. I can’t walk out of my LFS without having spent $500. My haul at $500 is maybe 5-9 small bags with frags. In 2004 I could have almost loaded a tank with corals for that amount.
Unfortunately the new trend is for prices to continually rise, while people’s wages stay the same. But that is a political discussion that I don’t want to get into here.
It is unfortunate in some ways how the popularity of the hobby has caused a negative effect.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

I’m with you about built to last but most people don’t want to pay for that. Most want inexpensive but don’t seem to get that that might also mean disposable.

In my very humble opinion, Neptune is charging a 'built to last' price, however not delivering a consistent product. Large scale manufacturing can have issues, that is fine, but how they handle those issues relates back to the 'quality' you are buying. There shouldn't be a need for a 14 page thread to raise enough attention to get the guarantee you were promised. My experience with Neptune Systems has been very limited, and it's threads like this that continue my apprehension.

 

[Mike.P]

I'm actually in the same as a number of people who have commented here... I got an Apex a couple of months ago, along with my new tank; the tank isn't set up yet, as I'm still waiting on some odds and ends, but I set the Apex up in my QT, just to start playing around, and learning the system. Since then, some of my purchasing decisions have been influenced by it, such getting a Varios 8 pump, and MP60's, since they are compatible with it. But the more I've been looking at things, I'm wondering whether I made a mistake in not going with the Profilux. It seems to be the more robust system, in and of itself, without having to get a dozen different modules for it. That's kind of the debate that I'm having, is whether to stick to the Apex, and start getting modules, or cut my losses, and try out the Profilux. I just wonder how it will work with the Varios and Vortechs that I already have.

I won't speak to their customer service and support one way or the other, as I have not needed to deal with them yet. So I just don't know.

 

[ShawnSaucier]

No one is bashing anyone. The thread is nice and respectful. People sharing openions. Experince and whatever data they think they have. You should not feel guilty or anything.
These forums are for this exact purpose..

Definitely not feeling guilty my friend. It was something that was really bothering me and I needed to get off my chest. I am still very attracted to the GHL and some of the different things that it offers.
My only issue is that I and so many others, where made to feel or treated in a fashion that was not the best. This was a discussion about two very similar products. Actually, not really even the products, but more so about the customer experience.

 

[road_runner]

Definitely not feeling guilty my friend. It was something that was really bothering me and I needed to get off my chest. I am still very attracted to the GHL and some of the different things that it offers.
My only issue is that I and so many others, where made to feel or treated in a fashion that was not the best. This was a discussion about two very similar products. Actually, not really even the products, but more so about the customer experience.

Well now people are more informed. People understand there are options and they are not bound by one choice. That's why I love these forums.