Feeling frustrated

[CindyKz]

I lost my last 2 fish to (I think) velvet while they were in quarantine (no treatment) so this time I ordered from a reputable online dealer (no names, this is not a slam). Both fish (a midas blenny and an indigo dottyback) looked GREAT for 6 days - then today I walked in to find the midas blenny swimming into the flow of the HOB filter. I said a bunch of cuss words and thought I'd give it a few minutes. Watched...he would swim into the flow, go back to his perch, sit there less than a minute, then up and swimming again. NOT the behavior I've observed and not normal for midas blenny's from what I've read, they perch most of the time. Suddenly this guy is doing nothing but swimming and it's almost all into the water flow. No other signs of disease at all, maybe breathing a little faster. MAYBE. The dottyback looked totally fine. CUSS CUSS SWEAR. Wait an hour, no change. FW dip for both and start copper. Now both fish are hiding.

I hope I did the right thing by starting copper and I hope they are ok. I really like them both. And I really wanted everything to go perfectly with this online dealer so I would have another "go-to", to add to the LFS I already love, although my last 2 fish didn't do well. I am disappointed.

OK rant over. Thank you for listening, and keep your fingers crossed with me.

 

[Maritimer]

Copper's probably not a bad idea, but ramp it up over a couple of days.

Midas blennies aren't like other blennies - sure, they perch sometimes, but they're up and off the bottom most of the time. In the wild, they'll hang out with a few different varieties of anthias, and they're yellow with a forked tail to blend into the crowd. Like anthias, they'll hang in a current and wait for plankton to drift their way.

That having been said, both ich and velvet are pretty common these days, so .... yeah. Copper.

But you might just be able to slow down filling up that cuss-jar.

~Bruce

 

[CindyKz]

Copper's probably not a bad idea, but ramp it up over a couple of days.

Midas blennies aren't like other blennies - sure, they perch sometimes, but they're up and off the bottom most of the time. In the wild, they'll hang out with a few different varieties of anthias, and they're yellow with a forked tail to blend into the crowd. Like anthias, they'll hang in a current and wait for plankton to drift their way.

That having been said, both ich and velvet are pretty common these days, so .... yeah. Copper.

But you might just be able to slow down filling up that cuss-jar.

~Bruce

Thank you for the words of encouragement! I knew the part about hanging out with anthias but not the part about hanging out in a current waiting for plankton. That's interesting because I did wonder if he was agitated because he was hungry so I dropped in a few pellets, scarfed in seconds. Like I said, NO OTHER SYMPTOMS. So I'll take your advice, increase the copper per package instructions, and if all else goes well call it a "prophylactic treatment"

 

[CindyKz]

I put the blenny and the dottyback into copper (cupramine) at 0.3 mg/L the night I wrote the OP. The next morning I fed a tiny bit before work and the blenny poked his head out to eat a pellet or two but I couldn't hang around and stare. By the time I got home at 5 pm he was curled up in the pvc pipe (not his usual hangout), not moving, colors stressed, and wouldn't eat. I have no way of knowing if the decline was due to an illness (velvet?) or the copper but still no spots. He looked so much worse than he did before and starting Cu was a soft call to begin with so I rolled the dice and put him in a fresh tank. The move was really gentle but still stressed him badly. This morning his color is a little better but he is laying out in the open, not hiding like normal. He moved after some food (yay!) but then spit it out (boohiss).

I have zero experience using copper so I have no way of knowing - is this a normal reaction? The dottyback is still in the copper like nothing ever happened. I'm sort of waiting to see what happens with the blenny before I decide whether or not to leave the dottyback (who never had symptoms anyway) in the copper.

 

[CindyKz]

Another update - clamped and ragged fins to go with the poor color, lethargy and lack of appetite. I am fairly certain the copper didn't cause the ragged tail, although if anyone has ever heard otherwise please lmk. Prazipro into the fresh tank.

The dottyback still looks fine - he must be bullet proof! Waiting to see how the blenny does with the prazi. If it helps I'll know I'm on the right track and I'll move the dottyback in with the blenny to treat together.

 

[Maritimer]

Did you ramp the copper up over the course of a few days? It's basically a poison that our fish tolerate better than their parasites, but it helps a _lot_ to acclimate them to it slowly.

Water changes can help you to back off and start over, if you feel that you need to. You could mix up a 100% water change if you wanted, fish can go _out_ of copper with no problems.

~Bruce

 

[CindyKz]

Did you ramp the copper up over the course of a few days? It's basically a poison that our fish tolerate better than their parasites, but it helps a _lot_ to acclimate them to it slowly.

Water changes can help you to back off and start over, if you feel that you need to. You could mix up a 100% water change if you wanted, fish can go _out_ of copper with no problems.

~Bruce

Sorry, I guess this post is confusing with 2 tanks going now. I didn't ramp the copper at all, it is still at the 0.3ish (hard to read of course) that the instructions say to start at. Final concentration for cupramine being 0.5 mg/L. I never even got there - the dotty is still in the original 0.3 mg/L in Tank #1 and doing just fine.

The blenny, who is now clamping fins, not eating, lethargic and has a ragged tail, isn't in copper at all anymore. I put him in a fresh tank (call this Tank #2) with no copper. Luckily I picked up several 10 gal tanks during the Petco $1/gal sale for doing TTM. I pulled him out of the copper last night when I saw how poorly he was doing because I couldn't tell if he was reacting to the copper or to a pathogen. The ragged tail and clamped fins developed this morning, which makes me consider flukes so I started prazipro.

If anything ever chases me out of the hobby, it will be sick fish.

 

[drawman]

Sorry, I guess this post is confusing with 2 tanks going now. I didn't ramp the copper at all, it is still at the 0.3 that the instructions state. Final concentration for cupramine being 0.5 mg/L. I never even got there - the dotty is still in the original 0.3 mg/L in Tank #1 and doing just fine.

The blenny, who is now clamping fins, not eating, lethargic and has a ragged tail, isn't in copper at all anymore. I put him in a fresh tank (call this Tank #2) with no copper. Luckily I picked up several 10 gal tanks during the Petco $1/gal sale for doing TTM. I pulled him out of the copper last night when I saw how poorly he was doing because I couldn't tell if he was reacting to the copper or to a pathogen. The ragged tail and clamped fins developed this morning, which makes me consider flukes so I started prazipro.

If anything ever chases me out of the hobby, it will be sick fish.

Yes you want to ramp up the copper slowly over the course of several days. At Bruce said it is a poison so it's best to go slow unless you have a very clear case of velvet IMO.

 

[DeniseAndy]

The indigo should be much hardier especially since they are captive bred fish (ora cross breed). Sorry to hear about troubles with the blenny. Good luck! It does get better (usually). Sometimes you just struggle finding a good supplier and sometimes the right fish for the system.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Cindy, I would let it ride a bit.
Going from one treatment to another to another and tank to tank isn't good.
It's awful and hard , and a lot of folks will disagree.
I'd get DT water into the new hospital and a bubbler in there. For air. Fresh mixed salt
Water really isn't good for fish. Yea, they'll tolerate it.

Fingers crossed.

 

[CindyKz]

Cindy, I would let it ride a bit.
Going from one treatment to another to another and tank to tank isn't good.
It's awful and hard , and a lot of folks will disagree.
I'd get DT water into the new hospital and a bubbler in there. For air. Fresh mixed salt
Water really isn't good for fish. Yea, they'll tolerate it.

Fingers crossed.

Thanks Salty

I need to add some water to the tank anyway so I will add some from my DT - I like that idea. I have a bubbler going to oxygenate already and headed to Petco for another HOB, more for circulation than actual filtration (although the little bit will help, also gives area for bacteria).

And you are right...no more changes from here on out. I'm actually leaving the house and going to the gym so I can't keep peeking in and stressing him.

 

[CindyKz]

I do have one question for those with experience using copper. Would this be an expected reaction from a level of 0.3 mg/L cupramine? Essentially 1/2 strength, no where close to therapeutic levels.

I've never used it but would like to know for the future. Not that I'm anxious to do it again.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thanks Salty

I need to add some water to the tank anyway so I will add some from my DT - I like that idea. I have a bubbler going to oxygenate already and headed to Petco for another HOB, more for circulation than actual filtration (although the little bit will help, also gives area for bacteria).

And you are right...no more changes from here on out. I'm actually leaving the house and going to the gym so I can't keep peeking in and stressing him.

Gotta take care or the pet and the owner.

And peek. Probably doesn't mind seeing your face.


Here's my royal gramma playing with the new kitten.

 

[CindyKz]

They look like a happy bunch!

 

[MSB123]

In general, copper slows down a fishes appetite. I have used it many times and it really depends on the fish. I would increase the dose to .5 mg/l for the indigo, because 0.3 isn't doing much for any diseases.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

In general, copper slows down a fishes appetite. I have used it many times and it really depends on the fish. I would increase the dose to .5 mg/l for the indigo, because 0.3 isn't doing much for any diseases.

Parasite

 

[MSB123]

Parasite

lol- my bad

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

lol- my bad

Haha. No worries. Just a friendly poke
I think it's important to rember that in treatment. It changes the way we think about what's happening. It's sick from being attacked by bugs. It's not an infection you give antibiotics for.
So the fish is already ill, and a tough flea treatment can be rough.

It's why the kittens aren't getting a flea treatment while they are being wormed.

 

[CindyKz]

In general, copper slows down a fishes appetite. I have used it many times and it really depends on the fish. I would increase the dose to .5 mg/l for the indigo, because 0.3 isn't doing much for any diseases.

An increase isn't due until tonight. I'll be watching to see how things go until then but I agree.....keeping him in sub-therapeutic levels would do more harm than good.

ETA: I'm more curious whether the lethargy, ragged fins, and stress color changes are typical of copper intolerance. I had read about the appetite suppressive properties.
Would like to lnow of anyone else has experienced thiis, or if flukes is a more cause.

 

[CindyKz]

I was at a reefing friend's house this afternoon and mentioned my little guy, and asked my friend if the copper would have done that to his tail. My friend's immediate response was "no, but a dottyback would".

Duh.

The blenny was defending its territory against the dotty initially, but I can absolutely see the dottyback going after the blenny if it was weakened, either by a parasite or by copper. They were destined to share a tank with a valentini puffer, not sure what I'll do about this. Neither fish would be a good fit for my larger tank.

On a happier note, he seems to be perking up a bit.