Feeling sad & frustrated

[WhiteRaven]

After a month in QT, I lost 4 fish. I had been using metro with prazi. Recognizing metro as an antibiotic I was concerned about losing my bio filter. I monitored for the two weeks of treatment; first two weeks were observation and fattening. All good. Then I did a partial water change and put carbon in to pull out meds three days ago. They looked fine on the morning of the second day. I didn't get to them again until the evening of the third day. 4 dead. Tested water and ammonia 0.5 and nitrites 0.5 maybe higher. Seachem ammonia badge says everything is fine. One day of being too busy, thinking it was safe due to two weeks of testing ok, and trusting the Seachem badge.

2 Cardinals g 2 clowns dead.
Ironically, the 2 firefish survived for now, supposedly the least hardy of them.

 

[CC13]

After a month in QT, I lost 4 fish. I had been using metro with prazi. Recognizing metro as an antibiotic I was concerned about losing my bio filter. I monitored for the two weeks of treatment; first two weeks were observation and fattening. All good. Then I did a partial water change and put carbon in to pull out meds three days ago. They looked fine on the morning of the second day. I didn't get to them again until the evening of the third day. 4 dead. Tested water and ammonia 0.5 and nitrites 0.5 maybe higher. Seachem ammonia badge says everything is fine. One day of being too busy, thinking it was safe due to two weeks of testing ok, and trusting the Seachem badge.

2 Cardinals g 2 clowns dead.
Ironically, the 2 firefish survived for now, supposedly the least hardy of them.

Sorry for the loss, I know QT can be even more frustrating than most people think. I personally find QT very difficult, which is why for fish I use Hyposalinity. I find it far too hard to monitor when medicating with copper (or a like medication) and due to work sometimes being on-top of the tank 24/7 just isn't an option for me.

Its part of the reason I have such a large volume system. The guys that have Nano's and small volume tanks are the real vikings in this hobby. A 1% change in my system would have no impact - I can afford to be slightly off. A 1% change in a Nano could mean disaster and complete loss of life - there is zero tolerance for error.

 

[Sassifrass7]

After a month in QT, I lost 4 fish. I had been using metro with prazi. Recognizing metro as an antibiotic I was concerned about losing my bio filter. I monitored for the two weeks of treatment; first two weeks were observation and fattening. All good. Then I did a partial water change and put carbon in to pull out meds three days ago. They looked fine on the morning of the second day. I didn't get to them again until the evening of the third day. 4 dead. Tested water and ammonia 0.5 and nitrites 0.5 maybe higher. Seachem ammonia badge says everything is fine. One day of being too busy, thinking it was safe due to two weeks of testing ok, and trusting the Seachem badge.

2 Cardinals g 2 clowns dead.
Ironically, the 2 firefish survived for now, supposedly the least hardy of them.

I'm so sorry. But I understand. We've all been there. I always tell my Husband, it's 50/50 on whether or not my new fish will make it long term. That's a lot of money we lose on some bad bets. If we were gambling, we wouldn't take those odds. I don't know what your fish died of, but I know that many fish are collected in a manner that causes them irreparable internal damage, which manifests at around 2 weeks after we get them. Many collectors aren't honest about how they collect the wild reef fish we love. If the firefish are ok, perhaps it's not the water that is to blame? Perhaps the other fish had internal organ damage.....it' breaks my heart,.....but the almighty dollar rules many people. If you need cheering up,....go on FB and talk to Sally Jo at GARP. She is an awesome resource to have! And a great mentor.

 

[tthouston]

In my opinion, for who start to buy the fishes.
Set up the quarantine tank a couple months ahead, let the tank cycled and keep the system running, then buy the fishes and treat them. You can tear the system down when you think you have enough your livestock. This is a safe way that I think of.

 

[CC13]

In my opinion, for who start to buy the fishes.
Set up the quarantine tank a couple months ahead, let the tank cycled and keep the system running, then buy the fishes and treat them. You can tear the system down when you think you have enough your livestock. This is a safe way that I think of.

You don't need to set the QT tank up ahead of time unless you are going TTM or possibly Hypo.

Medications (copper) will kill all beneficial bacteria anyways so LR in a QT tank with copper is useless anyways.

 

[Instigate]

You don't need to set the QT tank up ahead of time unless you are going TTM or possibly Hypo.

Medications (copper) will kill all beneficial bacteria anyways so LR in a QT tank with copper is useless anyways.

I very much disagree. Copper may reduce the beneficial bacteria somewhat, but not significantly. Even many antibiotics wont actually wipe out the beneficial bacteria but will stop the bacteria from reproducing. Others are more hard on the beneficial bacteria. But it's best to use a non-cycled tank for antibiotic treatment due to bio-film degrading the medications. But antibiotics are not usually used prophylactically so if just using the usual copper/prazi treatment setting up a QT to properly cycle beforehand is an excellent idea imo. However it is possible to control the ammonia with WC, bottled bacteria, seeded sponge from DT and careful monitoring.

I don't see why you would set it up beforehand for TTM though. No meds with TTM so Prime is an easy fix for ammonia.

 

[jda]

Copper does not kill much bacteria. The reason that there is no rock in a copper treated tank is that the aragonite will bind up all of the copper.

I learned a lot time ago that I will never have a pathogen-free tank. I do not QT all of my inverts or corals, and just doing fish in a reef tank is really fools gold. I do isolate my fish, but I only treat them if they show signs of disease. When they are eating from my hand, including pellets, and grown some, then they can go into the display. I am nearly positive that there is ich in my tank, but I have not seen any indications in probably 15 years, even with a whole pile of tangs.

This is not a popular opinion, but I have found that healthy fish are better than a pathogen free tank. They are not mutually exclusive, but real QT with medication is hard on fish.

 

[CC13]

Copper does not kill much bacteria. The reason that there is no rock in a copper treated tank is that the aragonite will bind up all of the copper.

I stand corrected.

I don't use copper treatments, so I was under the impression it killed all bacteria; must have read it somewhere and believed it to be true.

 

[MnFish1]

Copper does not kill much bacteria. The reason that there is no rock in a copper treated tank is that the aragonite will bind up all of the copper.

I learned a lot time ago that I will never have a pathogen-free tank. I do not QT all of my inverts or corals, and just doing fish in a reef tank is really fools gold. I do isolate my fish, but I only treat them if they show signs of disease. When they are eating from my hand, including pellets, and grown some, then they can go into the display. I am nearly positive that there is ich in my tank, but I have not seen any indications in probably 15 years, even with a whole pile of tangs.

This is not a popular opinion, but I have found that healthy fish are better than a pathogen free tank. They are not mutually exclusive, but real QT with medication is hard on fish.

You might be right - but its been shown pretty conclusively that after 10-11 months after an outbreak once the fish are immune. What do you do about velvet?

 

[jda]

I have a 100g system that I keep frags in that all new fish and inverts go into until I am happy with their adaptation into captivity. I have never really had velvet that I know about, but if I did, then I would capture them out of that tank and then treat them in a 75g that I have lying around for stuff like this (I would use water from my reef and the QT for quick setup). If I ever got velvet in the display, then the fish would have to fight it out since I probably would not treat the display, but this has never happened.

I do add leopard wrasses directly into the display... I do not like how the do in the non-sand tanks or with medication, so i take this risk. I have never had any problems yet, but understand that this is a risk.

I am just saying that this is what works for me, not that it is right or that anybody else should do this. I do not know enough about fish disease to know anything else. All that I know is that once I get fish eating NLS pellets and not afraid of me, then they all put on weight, grow and are super healthy.

 

[SEMA]

Do you not have any LFS around that quarantine their livestock? And only source net caught fish?

I've used cupramine in densely stocked fish only systems without a noticeable impact on bio filter. Ammonia kills just as fast as any pest. So before adding livestock, establish the biofilter first!

 

[Billldg]

After a month in QT, I lost 4 fish. I had been using metro with prazi. Recognizing metro as an antibiotic I was concerned about losing my bio filter. I monitored for the two weeks of treatment; first two weeks were observation and fattening. All good. Then I did a partial water change and put carbon in to pull out meds three days ago. They looked fine on the morning of the second day. I didn't get to them again until the evening of the third day. 4 dead. Tested water and ammonia 0.5 and nitrites 0.5 maybe higher. Seachem ammonia badge says everything is fine. One day of being too busy, thinking it was safe due to two weeks of testing ok, and trusting the Seachem badge.

2 Cardinals g 2 clowns dead.
Ironically, the 2 firefish survived for now, supposedly the least hardy of them.

Unfortunately I feel your pain, had 5 blue green chromis make it thru 2 weeks of prazi and in the 1st week of copper treatment I lost all within a day, copper was not an issue as I was in the process of bringing the level up to .20, I have lost 8 of 9 fish so far in QT as none of my LFS QT their fish, but hang in their, keep your head up, I have no doubt that when I finally get fish in my DT it will all be worth it and I also have no doubt YOU will also feel the same. Good Luck and keep reefing.

 

[maroun.c]

QT does claims higher fish death rate but at least gives some reassurance on not killing established fish in DT.
Water changes are a pain yet a 25 percent minimum.wayer change every other day is a must.
Edit: that is when treating with antibiotics.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

I stand corrected.

I don't use copper treatments, so I was under the impression it killed all bacteria; must have read it somewhere and believed it to be true.

I keep a 10g QT tank on ready standby. I started it with Seachem Stability immediately added Cupramine to it. The HOB filter has a small block of brightwell ceramic in it for bio filtration as well as a softball sized chunk of live rock. The copper concentration level is maintained between .25 and .5 and kept there even when empty. I have never had an issue with ammonia, nitrites or nitrates with this tank. When I have a fish in there I do small 1-2 gallon water changes every 3 days, and dose with Stability and add 2-3 drops of Cupramine to bring the copper concentration back up. The difference with Cupramine according to SeaChem is that compared to normal copper treatments they state that Cupramine stays in suspension and has minimal leaching into rock or any other bio-filtration. This allows you to have a sustainable bio filter in a QT tank and minimizes the need for water changes or risks of ammonia spikes in systems with no bio-media and traditional copper.

 

[HB AL]

If you need to quarantine and add meds to the quarantine you gotta stay on top of things on a daily/hourly basis and monitor the fish and water or it will fail and fish will die. There is a lot of reading on here on for proper quarantine setups, adding meds, testing etc.... I dont quarantine so I have nothing to add.

 

[MnFish1]

QT does claims higher fish death rate but at least gives some reassurance on not killing established fish in DT.
Water changes are a pain yet a 25 percent minimum.wayer change every other day is a must.

Can you reference this? Do you mean QT directly from the Ocean? Do you mean QT/observation? Do you mean QT/Medication? What size QT tank makes a 25 % water change a must? (what if you have a 100 gallon QT tank for 5 chromes, for example). What you're saying doesn't make sense (IMHO)

 

[WhiteRaven]

In my opinion, for who start to buy the fishes.
Set up the quarantine tank a couple months ahead, let the tank cycled and keep the system running, then buy the fishes and treat them. You can tear the system down when you think you have enough your livestock. This is a safe way that I think of.

Agreed. I cycled (fishless cycle with Dr Tim's ammonia additive to cycle) the QT for 2.5 months before adding fish. Took forever for the nitrites to finish. The ammonia cycled pretty quick at 2 weeks.

 

[WhiteRaven]

I very much disagree. Copper may reduce the beneficial bacteria somewhat, but not significantly. Even many antibiotics wont actually wipe out the beneficial bacteria but will stop the bacteria from reproducing. Others are more hard on the beneficial bacteria. But it's best to use a non-cycled tank for antibiotic treatment due to bio-film degrading the medications. But antibiotics are not usually used prophylactically so if just using the usual copper/prazi treatment setting up a QT to properly cycle beforehand is an excellent idea imo. However it is possible to control the ammonia with WC, bottled bacteria, seeded sponge from DT and careful monitoring.

I don't see why you would set it up beforehand for TTM though. No meds with TTM so Prime is an easy fix for ammonia.

I added prime and stability. I would have added right away but missed the spike due to a missed day of checking.

 

[MnFish1]

Agreed. I cycled (fishless cycle with Dr Tim's ammonia additive to cycle) the QT for 2.5 months before adding fish. Took forever for the nitrites to finish. The ammonia cycled pretty quick at 2 weeks.

The problem. is that the 'cycle' was only finished for the amount of ammonia produced by what was in the tank at the time. Once you add a fish - it will 'cycle' again. It is a mistake to assume that once a tank is 'cycled' that anything can be added. Every time anything is added to a tank - whether its 1 month or 10 years old - there be an addition of ammonia. Of course the 10 year old tank may (key word) better withstand an addition.

 

[WhiteRaven]

Thanks to those who provided kind words of encouragement.