Filter sock or no sock at all?

[Brady4000]

Hey all,

I am over changing my filter sock on my FOWLR. Anyone running no filter sock, no skimmer? I just have cheato.

Thoughts of removing the sock?

 

[outhouse]

We have a misunderstanding.

Yep fair enough. Many great ways to get this handled. but it has to be handled even in a fish only tank. Lots of ways to get her done depending on how many fish and how much you feed.

 

[Billys_reef]

As long as your nitrates and phosphates are where you want them to be, you don't necessary need a skimmer/filter socks/water changes.

But if your nutrients are too high then using these methods will greatly help with water quality.

 

[Peace River]

Hey all,

I am over changing my filter sock on my FOWLR. Anyone running no filter sock, no skimmer? I just have cheato.

Thoughts of removing the sock?

I would be hesitant to take this approach because of the possibility of a chaeto die off. If you want to go this general direction then I would lean toward a turf scrubber which IME seems to be more robust. That said, I still would recommend a skimmer. Regular water changes (possibly even at larger water volumes if necessary) would also be another complementary approach.

 

[Phistergosh]

Filter socks are more trouble than their worth IMO. there are so many other equivalent options that can be tossed out instead of washed. felt cloth is very cheap and filter floss isnt bad either. polyfill is really cheap too. I found ways to implement using felt instead and my nutrients are so low that i haven't even put a skimmer online (lightly stocked tank though). ive been having to dose phosphates for the last several months. im switching to a thinner felt next week to see how that works.

the automated filter floss rollers can also be used just by cutting the sheets and installing in baffle or inside of media cups. its 20 bucks for 50 yards of 7 inch wide felt. i had a thread discussing this topic last week

 

[Gtinnel]

Skimmers don’t actually add any oxygen. It’s a myth. The only way it does it is by rippling the water surface on the outflow. Pointing a powerhead towards the surface does a much better job. https://www.thereeftank.com/threads/do-skimmers-produce-oxygen.127915/

Sorry but I'm not sure how that link is proof. It is one person on a forum from over a decade ago saying it doesn't help and then others saying it does. The supposed proof was a link to a video that doesn't work. I can link several sources that claim that it does. I can't say for certain since I don't have a way to measure dissolved oxygen. If it's a myth than it's a very wide spread one, since even medication manufacturers tell you to leave your skimmer running without the cup, due to medications reducing oxygen in the tank.

Also, I am not saying a skimmer is a requirement for any tank, but it seems like it would be very beneficial to FOWLR tanks that often include large, messy fish.

 

[outhouse]

I would lean toward a turf scrubber which IME seems to be more robust.

Ive tried chaeto and turf scrubbers to combat detritus and nutrients. And kept water clean for years at a time, but it still led to slight tank crashes. And when it goes south it does so quickly.

I would be hesitant to take this approach because of the possibility of a chaeto die off

Only had that happen when water is so clean there is no food. Its never as easy as one thinks. On paper it works out but not in reality. And when it does bit you it sucks.

OP will have to find out like us, from making his own mistakes. Then it tends to stick.

 

[Miami Reef]

Sorry but I'm not sure how that link is proof. It is one person on a forum from over a decade ago saying it doesn't help and then others saying it does. The supposed proof was a link to a video that doesn't work. I can link several sources that claim that it does. I can't say for certain since I don't have a way to measure dissolved oxygen. If it's a myth than it's a very wide spread one, since even medication manufacturers tell you to leave your skimmer running without the cup, due to medications reducing oxygen in the tank.

Also, I am not saying a skimmer is a requirement for any tank, but it seems like it would be very beneficial to FOWLR tanks that often include large, messy fish.

This is what I meant to share: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php

 

[Gtinnel]

This is what I meant to share: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php

Wow that is a lot to read and I'm sure much of it will be over my head, but here is a excerpt that I will copy and paste from the conclusions section at the end.

"Airstones and skimmers appear to be a very effective means of oxygenating small water volumes."

I will admit that at skimming (hahaha) over the article I didn't see anywhere that defined small water volumes. But I did see at least one other instance in the article where mentioned a skimmer oxygenating the water. Could you point me to the part that supports your claim?

 

[Wyvern]

I was running completely sockless for the first 2 months, but now that I have 8 small fish, I am now running "hybrid" so not all pods in the WC are removed, my siphon is running through a sock and I clean it every day or two (a lot of yuck for little fish!) the dorso which is a trickle is sockless.

I wouldn't use the felt/cloth ones, but the nylon Bashsea are super easy to clean out in the sink, damped dry with a towel and put back in.

I have Two plates of brightwell, one for nitrifying which I placed right by the inlet to the pump and one in the fuge section broken in halve for de-nitrifying, I also have sand in there, Chemipure elite, UV, Ozone and a oversized skimmer.

I would NEVER run without a skimmer after seeing everything it pulls out.

If you had a good skimmer, I could see going sockless, however I imagine the sump will eventually become so nasty it would need to be deep cleaned, and how my sump is situated, I would rather clean socks everyday for a few minutes than spend all day disassembling the sump, cleaning it, rinsing it and putting it all back together.

 

[outhouse]

Could you point me to the part that supports your claim?

It really does not support his claim.

But it does say it has much less effect then most people believe, hence the whole myth part, which sort of applies.
In part he is correct. And this discussion is important because so little actually know this well enough to describe it properly. Im victim to such and ive done it for decades

 

[Gtinnel]

It really does not support his claim.

But it does say it has much less effect then most people believe, hence the whole myth part, which sort of applies.
In part he is correct. And this discussion is important because so little actually know this well enough to describe it properly. Im victim to such and ive done it for decades

So I've been doing some more reading on that article (not all of it though) and basically it seems to say that skimmers do a decent job of helping oxygenate the water, powerheads do almost nothing other than move the oxygenated water around the tank (which honestly surprises me), and that neither of those can even come close to comparing to how much oxygen gets added to the tank from photosynthesis.

 

[Brady4000]

How will you balance your nutrients and nitrates ? chaeto alone usually wont keep up. I tried this many times and got away with water changes every 2 years, but that was with a DSB and a huge skimmer

I have a 60g with a 10g sump so 70g in total. 1/2 the sump is cheato. With my filter sock.

My live stock is 1xLeopard wrass 1xcoral beauty 4xyellow tail damsels.

I keep everything in check by not over stocking my tank and using appropriate feeding methods. I also tossed in bristle worms and stars. I have enough CUC to manage what I have, and not starve.

I keep my tank low lit, in fact it looks like a new tank even though it’s been up for 1 year.

I also change out my filter socks 2x a week. I dose Cheato Gro (no cheato gro doesn’t have phosphates and nitrates). To keep the cheato happy and have to trim often. As for the nitrates, they stay around 50. But I don’t really worry about the in a FOWLR… I heard of people like Paul B having over 100+ and everything is just fine. Obviously his tank is different than mine.. but Fish in nitrates, is fish in nitrates… my PH hovers at 8.3

(and now I finally qualify for Zoa's >1000 message group!)

Eh I am sitting at 1300, and still got steamrolled. I think he should bump it to the 5k only club.

 

[Brady4000]

I would be hesitant to take this approach because of the possibility of a chaeto die off. If you want to go this general direction then I would lean toward a turf scrubber which IME seems to be more robust. That said, I still would recommend a skimmer. Regular water changes (possibly even at larger water volumes if necessary) would also be another complementary approach.

Why would the cheato die without the sock?

 

[Brady4000]

Ive tried chaeto and turf scrubbers to combat detritus and nutrients. And kept water clean for years at a time, but it still led to slight tank crashes. And when it goes south it does so quickly.

You crashed a FOWLR tank?

Only had that happen when water is so clean there is no food. Its never as easy as one thinks. On paper it works out but not in reality. And when it does bit you it sucks.

OP will have to find out like us, from making his own mistakes. Then it tends to stick.

Please explain. I am hoping to not learn the hard way. But I still don’t understand how taking away my sock is going to kill my cheato.

 

[Brady4000]

As for oxidization of the water. My tank is sitting at 5 1/2 ft tall. It’s a 60g tall. The back overflow sounds like a waterfall. Not to mention the drop in to the sock. I also have wave makers breaking surface tension in the sump and tank

 

[Brady4000]

i believe its millenial speak

Yup got me. I am definitely a millennial 1977 to 1995. 1986 here 34 years young. 100% a millennial.

Most who say this are actually Millienials. Out of curiosity are you over 44? I am sure you are. But 1977-1995 is Huge group. I mean it’s 16 years before millennials start to retire lol. Food for thought.

isnt there some way i can have an awesome reef with absolutely no effort at all?

Also I do have what I considered a nice reef I keep up with. I am just trying to figure out the inner workings of a FOWLR, and wondering if I am doing something that’s not even needed.

 

[Brady4000]

@Brady4000 , I always recommend a skimmer as a prime tool against ‘Yuck.’ If you see what is being pulled out here— that stuff that looks like Starbucks coffee— fish were swimming in that.

Thanks for the photo and input Jumbo. I really think I am going to stay with my filter socks after seeing your skimmer. I guess it’s one or the other in my mind. I don’t think the food will break down fast enough. That’s the part that scares me about removing the sock. Might just be in my head, but it makes sense to me.

 

[outhouse]

So I've been doing some more reading

That is pretty close, except it also states what you posted earlier, it only oxygenates small areas so its really not of use for aquariums unless that had commercial sized equipment.

 

[Gtinnel]

That is pretty close, except it also states what you posted earlier, it only oxygenates small areas so its really not of use for aquariums unless that had commercial sized equipment.

I saw the reference to small water volumes, but no reference to what was considered small.

 

[outhouse]

Please explain. I am hoping to not learn the hard way. But I still don’t understand how taking away my sock is going to kill my cheato.

You will need to reduce nitrates that is a must do. Chaeto alone will not always get it done, even using a skimmer and socks it can be a challenge. Im not telling you any one way you need to follow. But I would plan on water changes for fish health. I had a FOLR tank and lost my Emperor and thats when I switched to reef. It was from not doing water changes.