Filtration: Marine vs Fresh

Drenon88 · Mar 1, 2023

I'm trying to learn enough about marine aquariums to start my very 1st coral tank. My head is spinning - I have so many questions!

I'm very confused about marine sumps vs freshwater sumps. Seems to me that there is very little mechanical filtration in marine sump tanks, and I don’t understand why.

I don’t have any sump tanks, but I investigated and considered them in the past for my freshwater tanks. The numerous examples of freshwater sumps that I’ve seen online seem to be loaded with all sorts of mechanical and bio media but examples of marine sumps I’ve seen online seem to be lacking in filtration media. Why is this? Is anything more than a sock necessary?

I’m trying to be moderately budget conscientious so I’m not trying to build the ultimate sub $200 reef tank or anything extreme, but I think I’d like to build a DIY sump and I’d like to utilize some of the numerous spare tanks that I have lying around until or if I decide to pursue reef tanks long term.

Not sure if I should start a 2nd thread for this next part/question. I don’t understand the differences between the designs that are offered between the various kit sellers. Some panels have drilled or slotted panels and others less so. I noticed some offer a bubble trap and others don’t. Is there a tried-and-true example of a 10g conversion (or complete DIY) sump that the majority here agree is a good design that I can follow?

brandon429 · Mar 1, 2023

well placed question

in all reef displays the live rock is all you need for surface area

freshwater systems are slicks of leaves, rounded areas due to fast laminar river currents etc/comparatively low surface area unlike a reef

**you will still see people that pack in extra bio bricks etc in reef sumps but they're not needed, those guys just aren't hip to the differences yet

there are still myriad shady sales practices going in the hobby regarding lack of surface area but its never going to happen in a reef tank that's for sure. the live rock we use, even if its a medium amount vs a huge stack, is enough to carry all bioloads we see because it's in the display, right where waste is produced.

keeping extra surface area sequestered in a sump is also not efficient because waste isn't produced in the sump and water has to swirl around before getting inletted into the sump vs in the diplay where waste production + surface area contact is immediate.

you were keying in correctly on those setup differences. it's not that more surface area is better for a reef, it's that more surface area is a neutral impact to safety and provides more catchment zones for waste impaction that require us to clean it sometimes. more surface area is more work and neutral benefit to the biofilter system we need to command ammonia control.

MoshJosh · Mar 1, 2023

brandon429 said:
well placed question

in all reef displays the live rock is all you need for surface area

freshwater systems are slicks of leaves, rounded areas due to fast laminar river currents etc/comparatively low surface area unlike a reef

**you will still see people that pack in extra bio bricks etc in reef sumps but they're not needed, those guys just aren't hip to the differences yet

there are still myriad shady sales practices going in the hobby regarding lack of surface area but its never going to happen in a reef tank that's for sure. the live rock we use, even if its a medium amount vs a huge stack, is enough to carry all bioloads we see because it's in the display, right where waste is produced.

keeping extra surface area sequestered in a sump is also not efficient because waste isn't produced in the sump and water has to swirl around before getting inletted into the sump vs in the diplay where waste production + surface area contact is immediate.

you were keying in correctly on those setup differences. it's not that more surface area is better for a reef, it's that more surface area is a neutral impact to safety and provides more catchment zones for waste impaction that require us to clean it sometimes. more surface area is more work and neutral benefit to the biofilter system we need to command ammonia control.

I have seen this said a couple of times and I will agree that good rock probably offers more than enough surface area for bacteria, however, what about engineered rock, specifically branches? The surface of branches are rough, but the internal structure is solid, like concrete. I imagine surface area is overall quite low in this type of rock, and likely the same case with other "painted rocks" though regular caribsea life rock does have some porosity (not sure water can penetrate the surface due to the coating though). Also what about bare bottom tanks where you only get the surface area of the glass instead of the massive surface are of the sand bed.

Not that OP wants Caribsea life rock or bare bottom tank, just asking for a friend haha

brandon429 · Mar 1, 2023

I have never seen one instance of too little active surface area from even those faux setups, nice call. It's such a non issue we run this gigantic work thread around the rule: rocks are enough

this entire 54 page thread is literally us removing people's sandbeds all at once, any filtration they may have running alongside it as well, and if they want to cut their rocks down 50% in the display I don't mind either...this shows the extreme presentation in that if it's a reef display, we're not worried about surface area.

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

**I wouldn't think reducing rocks down to one ping pong ball sized mass would be safe, but any practical means a person wants to take we accept without worry. also factoring: no seneye owner has ever reported in their uploaded logs too little surface area in a reef display tank to cause ammonia noncontrol, there are thousands of seneye logs uploaded to the web now and thousands more coming soon as the meters drop in price and get more popular

the reason we're removing people's sandbed and filters is to move tanks or upgrade them, or beat invasions. at the heart of that patterning is still the most drastic reduction in active surface area in any reef tank thread, all in one place. their tanks keep turning out ok over and over because any prior rocks we wind up with in the new display are simply enough.

PotatoPig · Mar 1, 2023

For sumps - Petco has a 50% sale right now, if you get yourself a 20 gallon tank for about $15 you can make something relatively easy for filter sock, heaters and return chamber, especially if you have a local glass/window store - you’ll just need 2 or 3 pieces of glass (depending on setup) that’ll probably set you back about $10 each and some reef safe 100% silicone.

You can make more advanced sumps for sure, and bigger, but this will fit the basics for starting out.

Mr. Mojo Rising · Mar 1, 2023

Its called "the berlin method"

Berlin Filtration - Reef Cleaners

If you haven't already figured it out, terms in the hobby rarely have a solid concrete meaning, and a "Berlin Filtration System" is another one of those things. Basically, it is any method of filtration that utilizes a protein skimmer,

www.reefcleaners.org

srobertb · Mar 1, 2023

Drenon88 said:
I'm trying to learn enough about marine aquariums to start my very 1st coral tank. My head is spinning - I have so many questions!

I'm very confused about marine sumps vs freshwater sumps. Seems to me that there is very little mechanical filtration in marine sump tanks, and I don’t understand why.

I don’t have any sump tanks, but I investigated and considered them in the past for my freshwater tanks. The numerous examples of freshwater sumps that I’ve seen online seem to be loaded with all sorts of mechanical and bio media but examples of marine sumps I’ve seen online seem to be lacking in filtration media. Why is this? Is anything more than a sock necessary?

I’m trying to be moderately budget conscientious so I’m not trying to build the ultimate sub $200 reef tank or anything extreme, but I think I’d like to build a DIY sump and I’d like to utilize some of the numerous spare tanks that I have lying around until or if I decide to pursue reef tanks long term.

Not sure if I should start a 2nd thread for this next part/question. I don’t understand the differences between the designs that are offered between the various kit sellers. Some panels have drilled or slotted panels and others less so. I noticed some offer a bubble trap and others don’t. Is there a tried-and-true example of a 10g conversion (or complete DIY) sump that the majority here agree is a good design that I can follow?

Mechanical filtration in SW dumps: filter socks/rollers and protein skimmers.

Biological filtration- live rock, sand, and even bio-balls. Less wet/dry filters in reef tanks but I’ve seen it.

You don’t need a lot here. IM Nuvo AIO tank, ATO, powerhead, nano rock pack from gulfliverock, 20lbs of sand, heater, and a light source (everyone has their opinions). Put chemipure on Amazon subscribe and save and replace it every 3 months. Done.

Reign1 · Mar 1, 2023

LordofCinder said:
Its called "the berlin method"

Berlin Filtration - Reef Cleaners

If you haven't already figured it out, terms in the hobby rarely have a solid concrete meaning, and a "Berlin Filtration System" is another one of those things. Basically, it is any method of filtration that utilizes a protein skimmer,

www.reefcleaners.org

YESSS... Most run a modified Berlin method.

Tamberav · Mar 1, 2023

Drenon88 said:
I'm trying to learn enough about marine aquariums to start my very 1st coral tank. My head is spinning - I have so many questions!

I'm very confused about marine sumps vs freshwater sumps. Seems to me that there is very little mechanical filtration in marine sump tanks, and I don’t understand why.

I don’t have any sump tanks, but I investigated and considered them in the past for my freshwater tanks. The numerous examples of freshwater sumps that I’ve seen online seem to be loaded with all sorts of mechanical and bio media but examples of marine sumps I’ve seen online seem to be lacking in filtration media. Why is this? Is anything more than a sock necessary?

I’m trying to be moderately budget conscientious so I’m not trying to build the ultimate sub $200 reef tank or anything extreme, but I think I’d like to build a DIY sump and I’d like to utilize some of the numerous spare tanks that I have lying around until or if I decide to pursue reef tanks long term.

Not sure if I should start a 2nd thread for this next part/question. I don’t understand the differences between the designs that are offered between the various kit sellers. Some panels have drilled or slotted panels and others less so. I noticed some offer a bubble trap and others don’t. Is there a tried-and-true example of a 10g conversion (or complete DIY) sump that the majority here agree is a good design that I can follow?

You do not need bio media because live rock in the display is bio media.

You can use floss or socks if desired but the tiny particles will also be used by filter feeders or you can just let it settle in the sump and clean it out with a water change or some people leave it.

The ONLY things a reef needs is rock + light + flow (and fairly stable temps). Anything outside of that is optional. You can grow a reef without any sort of sump or filtration if you wanted and some do.

Here is a great example, not so much as a HOB filter on this tank and no sump. Rock + flow = filter.

Build Thread - WV Reefer’s 75 Gallon Big and Dirty

This tank was established in June 2017 and is about to turn a year old. It was formerly a planted freshwater tank, but then I just had to have another reef so it was converted. :) Build Info- BRS Dry Pukani Rock CaribSea Fiji Pink Sand Equipment: VorTech MP40 x 2 Aqueon Pro 200 Heater...

www.reef2reef.com

RocketEngineer · Mar 1, 2023

Answering the actual questions:

Lack of mechanical filtration is typical because said filter media serve to catch large detritus before it is allowed to decompose into smaller, more algae causing compounds. However, this means swapping out said filter media before decomposing can start which means a fair amount of regular maintenance that some/most have issues with keeping up with due to life. This has led to the use of automated roller mats that change the media as it clogs, or removing the mechanical filtration entirely for a different removal method (skimmer and critter feeding).

All those fancy baffles and such are just window dressing. My first sump was a 10g tank, a plastic container to keep my skimmer at the right water level, and a piece of lighting grid to keep the macro algae out of the return pump. No baffles needed.

RocketEngineer · Mar 1, 2023

CoastalTownLayabout · Mar 1, 2023

Sump design will be dictated by the types of filtration you want to employ. I’d recommend researching this first before you design or build your sump.

A basic sump will usually house sections for mechanical filtration, protein skimmer, heater, ATO and return pump. Optionals include media reactors and refugium. The products available to support these basic and optional choices are diverse so it pays to understand the dimensions and functionality of any purchase.

It’s not absolutely necessary to use dividers and baffles but they are handy and can increase usability, efficiency and access of sump hardware.

Retrofitting filtration hardware to a poorly designed sump can be a flog.

All in one systems take the guess work out of the equation and offer a simple, functional, clean looking alternative. There are compromises though, primarily lack of space for an effective protein skimmer.