Finer points of the cycle...

[alexkharden]

I figured this should go in this forum, but if I was wrong mods, please move it to its correct home.

I'm very new to all of this, as some of you know. I've been doing a lot of reading, but I have a few questions about cycling that don't appear to be easily searchable.

First, I'm going to do a fishless cycle using ammonia from ace hardware. From what I've come to understand, there are two general types of bacteria, the denitrifying kind and the kind that breaks down organics like food and poop. Is that correct? If it is correct, should I also do some ghost feeding while I'm dosing ammonia, to help build up both kinds of bacteria?

Second, the timing may work out that I get my lr before the cycle is complete, a lot of it. What else, besides massive and frequent pwc's, can I do to minimize or eliminate killing the "live" in the rock?

Third, once the cycle is at its end and my nitrates are sky high, can vodka/vinegar dosing, cheato, and skimming eliminate the nitrates?

Thank you everyone!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Actually there are many different types of bacteria doing all sorts of different things in our aquaria. Some important ones include those you mention, but there are others, and there may be many different species carrying out similar processes.

Cycling with ammonia is a fine plan. It will be greatly accelerated if you supply some suitable bacteria starter cultures, either by some live rock or sand from another tank, or with a commercial product like Dr Tim's.

I would not change water until you have cycled and find that added ammonia is depleted pretty fast. Then I'd do a big water change, unless it is a very large tank, to bring nitrate down.

I don't see any utility to ongoing water changes with respect to the nitrifying bacteria, but if you intend to go a long time before you add any creatures requiring food, you might ghost feed, or occasionally add more ammonia.

I wouldn't worry much over denitrification as a lot of times there isn't much you can do about it except add organic carbon, and I personally wouldn't probably start that until you begin feeding foods.

Chaeto may not grow well unless there is some source of phosphate, and that can be true or organic carbon dosing as well.

Does that help?

 

[brandon429]

nice. Id also add that we don't have to dose or support the non filtration bacteria as they are cross-contaminated into the system as soon as we set it up. every water source we'll use has some typically, our hands are covered in mixed aerobes as we work in the tank, the cycle begins as soon as we add water and time is the only factor we control (we like to speed things up a bit)

this thread was our detailed take on cycling and am thankful to Randy for freeing us from nitrite testing that's one less obsession to worry about in a cycle

This thread is 100% about not killing live rock, the mixed cycle approach is covered

http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...d-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

 

[alexkharden]

Yes, a lot.

I'm just worried about the rock. I'll be putting in 380 pounds of aquacultured rock straight from the gulf of Mexico. It'll be shipped in water, which means there will be a lot of bacteria, and a lot of hitchhikers. I'm just trying to keep every possible bit of life that I can. Hence the desire to cycle the sand to have some form of nitrogen processing ability before I put them in there.

Am I over thinking it? Will the rock be able to handle its own, even if the sand isn't cycled?

 

[brandon429]

yes for sure you can control its loss, we use a direct example of your kind of rock in the thread. you would arrest ammonia in any way possible and sustain that until dieoff stops

 

[alexkharden]

That is a very good read, I'll need to go through it a couple more times to make sure I'm getting it all, but since I'll be transporting in water it seems like as long as a bunch of higher order life doesn't die I should be just fine

 

[brandon429]

that ocean cured rock has such goodies set eons in place we sure might lose a bit, but its neat to see that at least others have been able to transport it without much loss. that one guy was able to keep most of his corals alive Id sure like to see an update for him!

 

[alexkharden]

That makes me happy, I'm so excited!

 

[alexkharden]

Ok, so it appears that my trip to Florida to pick up my live rock will be delayed. In an effort to use the time productively, I moved forward with my original plan to try to build up my bacteria a little in the 200 lbs of sand in the tank. This is a 190g DT, with a 75g sump/fuge. I've dosed the tank up to 1.5ppm of Ammonia, bumped up the tank temp to 84 degrees Fahrenheit, turned my Waveline DC-6000 return pump on high, turned my Jebao RW-8 and RW-15 up on high on the W1 setting, and placed an airstone in front of my return pump powered by a Tom's aqualifter.

I did all of this because I've read that temp and aeration help bacteria grow more quickly/strongly. Is what I've done too much, too little, just right? I didn't want to go to 4ppm ammonia like I've read, because if my bacteria load hasn't built up enough before I get my rock then I didn't want to place them into such a high ppm environment. I figured that the rock could handle the 1.5, if it's still in there when I'm ready to add the rock.

Hopefully, my reasoning is sound, so far. It's also possible that I'm a newbie impatient to do something, anything, and I've justified all of this in my brain to sound plausible.

So do I need a wake up call?

Once the rock is in there I feel like I'll be fine and more patient, but right now I'm going crazy. Once in, my plan is to leave the tank with nothing but rock, sand, cuc, and whatever life comes on the rock, for at least 2-3 months. I figure after about a month of having rock in there I'll get a fish or two and put them into quarantine and keep them there for two months. That'll put me at my three month mark for introducing livestock. This is to try to give time for the anaerobic bacteria to build up. Which leads me to several more questions.

1) I've read several articles about the anaerobic bacteria, but I'm still unclear as to how to tell when exactly they've formed and are being productive. I fell like it's when the nitrates finally start going down, is that correct?

2) During this period of no fish/coral do I need to ghost feed my tank to provide something for the cuc/bacteria/life on rock to feed on?

3) Well, I can't remember what 3 was, but I know there was one, so I'll reserve the right to ask 3 later.


Thank you very much for your help!

 

[brandon429]

In my opinion you factor out, disconsider denitrification. The reason people dose carbon, set up refugia, skim extra, set up denitrator coils etc is all because natural denitrification is rare to harness. You simply plan to deal with nitrate and po4 via detritus control above all, and balanced tank bioloading, and then of course it's ok to aim for any other mode you'd like to use. As any factor or requirement, I recommend simply skip concern over denitrification. When it's reliable nobody will need to dose carbon anymore and plant filters won't be needed, just live rock and sand

All else mentioned for aerobic bacteria prep is fine

 

[alexkharden]

I didn't realize I was aiming for a holy grail, lol. I took all that I read literally, thinking I could do it. Still, everything I've read seems to indicate the longer I wait before adding live stock, the better, right?

 

[brandon429]

Even that too is a matter of preference it's not a hard rule. the major benefits to waiting is verifying tank stabilities before adding delicate life, but the thread above is concerned only with a verified start date that your substrates absolutely can support life without having free ammonia in the system. each keeper has to find their happy medium start point. I myself put in a full load of sps and Lps within a day or two of full setup...not because of being rogue but because it's documented completely above that group B rocks allow that if one is already quite sure of their tank stability.

Waiting for some additional aging after the tank is setup is harmless, but some people absolutely needed the quicker approach, say in instances of tank leaks, moves etc.

 

[brandon429]

If I had to pinpoint the single most important aspect of your tank start above all, it's this:

How you handle the first visually confirmed presence of algae. It's coming, so is the decision.

In my highly isolated opinion, the simple choice a person makes to either leave early algae in the tank or not is the most critical decision in reefing. We collect massive reserves of wrecked algae tanks, and fix them, across forums, across continents, and 100% of problem algae tanks opted to leave it in vs kill the algae upon first time it's detected in the reef tank.

The reason they choose to keep something in the tank that could easily derail their entire purchase is:
-no other mode is currently acceptable. The mode that guarantees you will never lose your tank to algae is not preferable, compared to the risk of losing the tank by leaving algae in the system and dealing only with the water, which I find ultimately strange considering how much money we spend.
-only natural approaches are welcomed, even though GFO isn't natural, or adding vodka to a tank, or keeping as much bioload as we do in the dilutions we do etc. but regarding that little tuft of algae, that's where the road forks.
-we have been told without exception that algae and cyano are requisite early invaders (meaning you leave them in the tank, it always comes back to that) and you just wait it out for them to hopefully go away.

Meanwhile, those who practice forced exclusion of algae are permanently algae free and are correcting wrecked tanks with unnatural methods by the ton, welcome to the choice dichotomy that is reefing

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think the added aeration is not likely having much effect, and if you are getting salt spray, I'd stop it.

Denitrification needs organics and there may not be much in the tank currently, so nitrate may not decline.

You mentioned a cuc. What live is in the tank now?

 

[alexkharden]

If I had to pinpoint the single most important aspect of your tank start above all, it's this:

How you handle the first visually confirmed presence of algae. It's coming, so is the decision.

In my highly isolated opinion, the simple choice a person makes to either leave early algae in the tank or not is the most critical decision in reefing. We collect massive reserves of wrecked algae tanks, and fix them, across forums, across continents, and 100% of problem algae tanks opted to leave it in vs kill the algae upon first time it's detected in the reef tank.

The reason they choose to keep something in the tank that could easily derail their entire purchase is:
-no other mode is currently acceptable. The mode that guarantees you will never lose your tank to algae is not preferable, compared to the risk of losing the tank by leaving algae in the system and dealing only with the water, which I find ultimately strange considering how much money we spend.
-only natural approaches are welcomed, even though GFO isn't natural, or adding vodka to a tank, or keeping as much bioload as we do in the dilutions we do etc. but regarding that little tuft of algae, that's where the road forks.
-we have been told without exception that algae and cyano are requisite early invaders (meaning you leave them in the tank, it always comes back to that) and you just wait it out for them to hopefully go away.

Meanwhile, those who practice forced exclusion of algae are permanently algae free and are correcting wrecked tanks with unnatural methods by the ton, welcome to the choice dichotomy that is reefing

So, what do you do with the algae? I gathered from your post that leaving it in is a no go. I'm assuming that using a bunch of chemicals is a no go? So, what, vodka, gfo, carbon, increasing flow...?

What's the proper route for the new aquarist?

 

[alexkharden]

Nothing is currently live in the tank. The rock I'm buying will come with a diversity of life on it, and the package also comes with a cuc. So I'll be getting all at the same, whenever I'm finally able to go get it.

 

[brandon429]

I have my biases on how I deal with algae see my signature link but that in -no way- is the definitive tank saving mechanism and anyone can have an algae free tank using zero chemical cheats.

-nature does it with grazers- and that's an ideal condition to strive for, grazers doing the work for us

The act of not permitting algae is the crux, people just choose which mode they want to employ to rid it.

Years ago I had some red algae gelidium pop up in my tank. So I drained the water down and used a grill lighter to fry it off the rocks. I had no algae in the spot afterwards, that is an example of no chemical no algae.

For sure I'm in the minority this is admitted. Every formal take on algae control in the reef tank involves leaving the algae in the tank and this will always be the case. And we'll always have giant threads fixing that condition as it kills tanks in scores given enough time.

I once had some green hair algae on my rocks. Instead of leaving it in, and dealing with the water, I lifted out the rock and used a screwdriver to scrape that algae off along with its anchors. Crude? Surely. But it was exclusion and as such that rock didn't become festered with algae. There is no right or wrong way this is only my opinion from working the big threads

 

[brandon429]

The single takeaway from my signature link isn't the crazy stuff we dump into reefs to fight algae

Some use tech m or vodka or other dosers


The single takeaway is look at the thousand aquariums who had a chance to fix things, possibly unnaturally, long before their whole investment was on the line. This is a huge repository of hesitation, not of chems we dump into a tank. Every fixed tank in the thread never ever had to wait that long to act, they were just following the rules as they got to a totally wrecked tank. Even readers who now see that will see algae in their tank next week, and leave it in for whatever reason to begin attacking the water... this is a fascinating cycle.


The way to see algae and never lose your tank to it is this: preventatives are not the same thing as algae removers. Always strive for great low nutrients. Great clean up crews and grazers and light balances (preventers)

And if there is any spec of time they don't work, employ a remover. Simply doing this makes every tank in the world algae free, and it will restore a filthy wrecked tank back to good in the lions share of cases we show.

 

[alexkharden]

My plan for algae control was skimming and cheato, with some vodka dosing to help bind up organics to get skimmed out faster.

That's pretty much the extent of the thought I'd given it, with the exception of wondering about getting a vacuum for the sand, but I've only just entered the research stage of that, so I don't know if it's something I should do or not. I've also started researching gfo, but I don't know much about it yet either.

 

[brandon429]

Yes absolutely do that, as preventatives

And then if some bryopsis pops up anyway, choose your remover method

If you plan the preventative correctly you'll never need the remover. Having a remover handy for lapse in preventative planning is key

Hundreds of algae control pages come down to literally only that distinction.