First cycle Red Sea reef mature kit help.....

[rkpetersen]

I can’t figure out how to use these Salifert kits

Are you suppose to put the cup all on the white background or half and half and compare colors?

Picture 1 correct or picture 2 ???

You look through it from the side and match the color.
Yes, through that very small height of fluid. It's difficult.
That's one reason I don't use the Salifert tests that use color cards.
Their magnesium and potassium tests are excellent though.

Also, remember that measuring nitrate isn't that useful right now.
You should measure nitrite, NO2.

Your bacteria aren't going to die from lack of skimming.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

You look through it from the side and match the color.
Yes, through that very small height of fluid. It's difficult.
That's one reason I don't use the Salifert tests that use color cards.
Their magnesium and potassium tests are excellent though.

Also, remember that measuring nitrate isn't that useful right now.
You should measure nitrite, NO2.

Your bacteria aren't going to die from lack of skimming.

That's not exactly correct. You look through the top and match the color. If you are getting a reading of 10 ppm or lower by looking through the top, then you can look through the side to get a more accurate reading. You take the reading that you get by looking through the side and divide by 10. So, if looking through the side has a color between the 25 and 50 range, your nitrates are between 2.5 and 5 ppm.

As far as where to put the vial on the card goes, you can put the whole thing in the white area, or half and half. Which ever way is easier for you to decipher the color match.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

As best I can tell,

Nitrates look about 5

All went up for some reason to 9.1

Nitrates were between 2 and 5 perhaps

Still zero ammonia

Ammonia should decrease, so this is ok. Just follow the instructions. Have you measured nitrite yet?

Also, I have one of those ultra low phosphorus Hannah checkers I got from a friend
No idea what it even does yet but I ran the test today for kicks.

Said it was 19? Make any sense?

Yes, that makes sense. You take that number and multiply it by 3.066 and then divide it by 1000 to get your PO4 in ppm. So your PO4 measurement is 0.058254 ppm.

As @rkpetersen stated, lack of a skimmer won't kill your bacteria. However, the reef mature program has you running one because they have included Potassium Nitrate in the dosing and have you dosing NoPoX to help culture the bacteria that will consume nitrate. You are suppose to use a skimmer while using NoPoX. Again, I would follow the program as stated in the instructions. Red Sea has written those for a reason. If you don't follow the instructions and it doesn't work, it's equivalent to trying to bake a cake and not following the recipe. You can't blame poor results on the manufacturer or recipe writer.

 

[Rick Krejci]

I started my tank the same way you did...with live rock. Determined the steps made no sense at all until you have gone through the initial cycle with curing the rock. It didn't make sense to me to do carbon dosing while you're trying to get bacteria on the rocks.

I'd recommend stepping back, completely stopping the Red Sea system, letting nature take it's course with the rock, and adding some ammonia source yourself (chemically or let a small piece of shrimp rot) and get one of those seachem ammonia badges for your tank. It's gonna take a month or so, so just relax and let nature work. Once you see ammonia go up on the badge and then drop to 0, then add a little more ammonia source. Once you see that go up and down to 0 in a day or so, you're probably cycled and ready to go. Test nitrate and do a pretty good water change to bring the levels down. I don't worry about Nitrite much since it will generally take care of itself and isn't particularly toxic to saltwater fish (as opposed to Freshwater).

Only then can you start adding fish/bio load. Your tank will go through the uglies in several stages...don't chase it, just let it happen and maybe get a small cleanup crew to help you out. I DON'T recommend getting the cleaner packages (snails, hermits...) since you usually get way more cleaning capability than what your new tank can produce, leading to die-off of the livestock, making the problem worse.

Especially with dry rock, it's just going to take time for your tank to mature and stabilize. I am still a believer in ocean live rock (like from Florida). I was struggling with dry rock stability and dinos and stuff and, once I added cured live rock, my tank stabilized quickly. But I also got some aiptasia (file fish keeps wiped it out) and some concerning worms and such. But I also got some cool hitchhikers like small clams and even a scallop that's still alive after more than 1.5 years. But with dry rock, you can eventually get there, just takes more time.

 

[Rscott]

Here lies the problem
Everyday someone tells me to do something different

Case in point above

Many say let it roll

Others say bail now



Tuff to make decision when I barley know anything lol

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Here lies the problem
Everyday someone tells me to do something different

Case in point above

Many say let it roll

Others say bail now



Tuff to make decision when I barley know anything lol

That's the tough thing with forums like this, deciding which advise you want to take.

My opinion is that you already invested time and money into the reef mature program. It would be a shame to waste that investment IMO. You only have about 2 weeks left until the program is suppose to be finished. This could be a great lesson in patience, which is required to have any real success in this hobby. At the end of the reef mature program, if your tank isn't cycled, you could always try a different fishless cycle by either adding a piece of dead shrimp (Yuck, the smell can get bad) or by dosing ammonia and a different bacteria product such as Fritz or Dr Tims.

It's your tank and your call. If you did nothing else for two months, your tank would cycle. As I stated in an earlier post, the best thing you can do is choose a path and then stick with it. If you try to follow a bunch of different paths, you will eventually end up with a mess.

Let us know what you intend to do. We all want to help.

Stay patient.

 

[Rick Krejci]

Here lies the problem
Everyday someone tells me to do something different

Case in point above

Many say let it roll

Others say bail now



Tuff to make decision when I barley know anything lol

Understood. I did the exact same thing you did (started with Dry Rock and the Reef Mature System). Here's my post from 9/2017:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-reefer-250-startup.322248/#post-4029886
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-reefer-250-startup.322248/#post-5015302

The assumption for Reef Mature is live rock established with bacteria. So that's why I suggest letting the Dry rock cure and go through the cycle. To keep going with it when the preconditions for using it aren't met are not going to lead you to the results you desire.

Once the Rock has cycled, then you can decide if Reef Mature is a good way to move forward to help minimize Nitrates. It's really just expensive carbon dosing IMO. Doing it early caused a gooey slime layer to build up on surfaces, even with good skimming. Every system is different and you really need to understand what's going on. Following a recipe like Reef Mature without taking into consideration what's happening in your ecosystem can lead to undesirable results (like slime that I got).

 

[IslandLifeReef]

The assumption for Reef Mature is live rock established with bacteria. So that's why I suggest letting the Dry rock cure and go through the cycle. To keep going with it when the preconditions for using it aren't met are not going to lead you to the results you desire.

Just wonder why you say that dry rock doesn't meet the preconditions of the reef mature program when the instructions clearly state, "If you do not have live rock or sand bed, alternative porous other media must be made available for the aerobic and anoxic bacteria."

Wouldn't dry rock count as other media?

As far as why they have you carbon dosing during the program goes, they are providing both aerobic nitrifying bacteria as well as anoxic denitrifying bacteria. The carbon dosing is there to help feed the anoxic bacteria.

 

[denniscahill]

I just finished my cycle using the Reef Mature system.

It worked, but about 75% slower than the timeline provided. I started with dry rock, and a bag of sand with a small bacteria load from the manufacturer.

I did not get any type of "ugly" other than a diatom bloom that self corrected when I got the correct lighting for my tank (was using a left over freshwater led) and reduced light from 13 hours to 8.5.

Red Sea includes both bacteria spores and an ammonia source in this product so it provides what you need to cycle.

Make sure to cross check your alk readings with your salt. I use Red Sea Reef Pro so my alk was way over their suggested ranges to maintain with one of the additives in the box, so I never used it.

And, just like everybody else has said, just be patient. You chose to use this cycling kit, so just follow through and let it run the course. It will be just fine.

I don't own a skimmer and had zero problems.

Probably the best advice I could give comes from another hobby of mine, homebrewing beer. Relax, grab a homebrew and enjoy!!

Cake

 

[Rick Krejci]

Just wonder why you say that dry rock doesn't meet the preconditions of the reef mature program when the instructions clearly state, "If you do not have live rock or sand bed, alternative porous other media must be made available for the aerobic and anoxic bacteria."

Wouldn't dry rock count as other media?

As far as why they have you carbon dosing during the program goes, they are providing both aerobic nitrifying bacteria as well as anoxic denitrifying bacteria. The carbon dosing is there to help feed the anoxic bacteria.

If you are starting with the rocks/media having no ability to convert ammonia->nitrite->nitrate, it just doesn't make sense to me...maybe I'm missing something. Your very first day of dosing you are adding bacteria (Nitro Bac - a good thing) and a Nitrogen/phosphorous source (Bacto-Start - a good thing), both of which will help kick-start growth of bacteria on/in you currently "dead" media. But then it also has you carbon dose (NOPOX), which will remove the Nitrogen/phosphorous you just added to help feed the bacteria on the rocks. So then you get a bacteria bloom in the water itself and the skimmer efficiently removes the bacteria taking the nitro/phos with it. So you are removing much of the nutrients you just added without it stimulating the bacteria growth on/in your rocks/media.

It's adding a complication that is unnecessary when you are just trying to establish bacteria growth on your rocks/media. Let the nitrates go up, with maybe a water change after a month to get them back in control. Once the cycle is complete, then you can start considering one of the many ways to reduce nitrates/phos once stability is reached. Otherwise you're just chasing your tail IMO. I prefer Chaeto and a fuge to bring them down naturally, but Carbon dosing is proven as well, but you have to be in tune with your tank or it can lead to other issues...I don't consider it a beginners method.

Once I understood what it was trying to do, I just didn't/don't understand the logic.

UPDATE: If you're not running a skimmer, then I suppose those water-born bacteria (which are not the same bacteria that populate in the rocks) will die and continue to feed the on-media bacteria. Seems like an unnecessary step tho.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

@Rick Krejci, the NoPoX doesn't remove the nitrogen, phosphorous, or nitrate that has been added to the tank via the Bacto-Start. What NoPoX does is act as a food source for the anoxic bacteria that remove the nitrate and phosphate from the system. The additional food from the carbon dosing allows those bacterial populations to increase, thereby increasing your systems ability to process nitrate and phosphate. These bacteria are different than the nitrifying bacteria that change ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate. That is why they call it a reef mature kit instead of just a cycling kit. In the typical cycle, all we are concerned about is managing ammonia and nitrite. The nitrate and phosphate removal is done initially through water changes and or other means such as GFO, a nitrate absorber, or a refugium.

The way I understand the reef mature program is that it does more than just grow the bacteria that rid our tanks of ammonia and nitrite.

 

[Rick Krejci]

@Rick Krejci, the NoPoX doesn't remove the nitrogen, phosphorous, or nitrate that has been added to the tank via the Bacto-Start. What NoPoX does is act as a food source for the anoxic bacteria that remove the nitrate and phosphate from the system. The additional food from the carbon dosing allows those bacterial populations to increase, thereby increasing your systems ability to process nitrate and phosphate. These bacteria are different than the nitrifying bacteria that change ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate. That is why they call it a reef mature kit instead of just a cycling kit. In the typical cycle, all we are concerned about is managing ammonia and nitrite. The nitrate and phosphate removal is done initially through water changes and or other means such as GFO, a nitrate absorber, or a refugium.

The way I understand the reef mature program is that it does more than just grow the bacteria that rid our tanks of ammonia and nitrite.

Agreed. But if I was just starting a tank with dry rock, I would not carbon/NOPOX dose on day 1 before the rock is at least cycled to process ammonia, but this is what Reef Mature does. Does this make sense? I've not seen any "best practice" cycling website that recommends this. It makes sense once the rock/media is able to process the ammonia to be able to control the outputs of the process, but before that, I just don't understand the reasoning.

 

[BeejReef]

This thread really brings it all back.. lol.. Only a few months ago, but feels like a long time. Looking at the color through the top, no, the side

It's so hard to wait for something invisible to happen. Easy to forget how agonizing it is once your tank is up and running. I can't improve on the really good advise you're getting.
Part of the fun, for me, is, definitely, doing the research and getting opinions from peeps with a lot of experience. But, then you get to/have to make the decision on your own. Just like picking your fantasy team or betting on a horse after having heard the analysis. Owning the big wins and losses is where it's at. Hopefully more wins!

Anything else tank-related you can work on in the meantime makes the time go by a lot faster. Tinker with setting up a RODI or run some PAR tests on your lights. Two or three more weekend projects and you'll be in business!

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Agreed. But if I was just starting a tank with dry rock, I would not carbon/NOPOX dose on day 1 before the rock is at least cycled to process ammonia, but this is what Reef Mature does. Does this make sense? I've not seen any "best practice" cycling website that recommends this. It makes sense once the rock/media is able to process the ammonia to be able to control the outputs of the process, but before that, I just don't understand the reasoning.

The reason I think it makes sense is that the reef mature system doses nitrate in addition to ammonia. The system also adds anoxic bacteria, which other methods don't add. All of these bacteria will eventually get there on their own, but Red Sea provides them to you and also provides a method to feed them via NoPoX. The other methods only provide nitrifying bacteria and only worry about reducing ammonia and nitrite.

I'm not saying this method is better or worse than another method. However, if you have already purchased and started the system, I don't see a reason not to follow their instructions and complete the method. I don't think Red Sea just put this together without any research or testing. That is just my opinion and may only be worth what you paid for it.

Sorry if this discussion has detracted from the OP's thread. @Rscott, keep the questions coming. I don't think anyone will be offended if you choose one direction over another. I know I won't because we are all trying to help.

 

[Rick Krejci]

The reason I think it makes sense is that the reef mature system doses nitrate in addition to ammonia. The system also adds anoxic bacteria, which other methods don't add. All of these bacteria will eventually get there on their own, but Red Sea provides them to you and also provides a method to feed them via NoPoX. The other methods only provide nitrifying bacteria and only worry about reducing ammonia and nitrite.

I'm not saying this method is better or worse than another method. However, if you have already purchased and started the system, I don't see a reason not to follow their instructions and complete the method. I don't think Red Sea just put this together without any research or testing. That is just my opinion and may only be worth what you paid for it.

Sorry if this discussion has detracted from the OP's thread. @Rscott, keep the questions coming. I don't think anyone will be offended if you choose one direction over another. I know I won't because we are all trying to help.

I hope this hasn't distracted...to me it's all about gaining an understanding of what's going on in the glass box.

Like I said, without a skimmer, I suppose the anoxic bacteria will bloom and die (without being skimmed) and then lead to releasing the nutrients so they available to the nitrifying bacteria in the rocks. The anoxic bacteria don't really get "established" in the same way the nitrifying bacteria do, so I'm skeptical of any maturation benefits since the only nitrates to take up at the start are the ones you just added. I agree it likely won't hurt anything, but it adds a confounding variable and complexity into a normally straightforward process.

My biggest issue is that it obscures visibility into the nitrifying processes taking place, where you can see the very clear progression of ammonia then nitrites then nitrates. Makes if very confusing to figure out what's going on (as can be seen in this thread). It also plays into the old thoughts that Nitrates are inherently bad and difficult to control. Now we know they are relatively easy to control so much so that people actually dose them (myself included for a while).

 

[Rscott]

Well confusing is correct!
I am thoroughly confused
I had done some research on the nitrogen cycle before starting this of course

It looked pretty reasonable

I have no clue what the different types of bacteria you speak of are.

What is the difference between nitrifying and de nitrifying ?

Yes I can google but if anyone wants to answer that would be cool too

Tonight’s testing yielded some more interesting results

ORP climbing to 250 now

Ammonia was .25 ish

Nitrates looked to be much higher
I would say even over 25

Nitrite looked like .2

Makes sense or no?
I’m still not 100% sure I’m reading the test correctly but just following the Salifert instructions and trying to match as best I can

Thanks to everyone for the great continued response

I will stick with the RS kit for now

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I wouldn't worry about ORP right now.

Your numbers look good. Nothing to worry about with them yet.

Nitrifying bacteria converts ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. Onoxic bacteria (de-nitrifying) processes nitrate and to some extent, phosphate. Both are required to run a successful tank without other types of filtration.

I used NoPoX for about 1 year. Now, my tank doesn't require it.

 

[Stigigemla]

First of all if You use the Red Sea starting method use it. All the things they say has a purpose. If You change steps it means You go back in the procedure.
Using Nopox means growing bacteria that is supposed to be skimmed out. You need the skimmer now.

I use a little different testing procedure for my beginners. I recommend only the nitrate test. That means they will not see high ammonia but it will come wether they want it or not.
After the ammonia is present bacteria begins to break it down to nitrite. And the nitrate test will show that as a high value. (Normally between 10 and 50 mg/l). As the bacteria later converts the nitrite to nitrate the value from the test will sink. Normally to 1 or lower. When the value doesnt sink anymore the startup cycle is completed. The time for this varies from a week to more than a month.

 

[Rscott]

Thanks for all the thoughts.
I had not pulled the trigger on the skimmer because i cant decide what i wanted.
I really wanted the Reef Octopus Regal but having a hard time handling a $500 skimmer but liked the idea of a DC skimmer.

Considering the new Red Sea Rsk 600 also

 

[Rscott]

Well update from tonight’s testing

Ammonia = <.25

No2 = .2

No3 was strongly in the 50 range

Now the kit does call for a 5% water change tomorrow

I also pulled the trigger on a skimmer today

Which is promptly going insane in my sump