First fish-less cycle: Praying to Poseidon

[JakesReef209]

Nitrates are are coming from the breakdown of nitrite by bacteria.

Ammonia eating bacteria produce nitrite. Nitrite eating bacteria produce nitrate. In the natural world, there are bacteria that also consume nitrate but in our tanks, we aren't able to produce a large enough environment suitable to produce enough of those bacteria. We use other methods to reduce nitrate such as macro algaes, biopellet reactors, water changes and carbon dosing methods.

So wouldn't it stand to reason that if I'm able to get my nitrite levels down, there wouldn't be anything for those bacteria producing nitrates to feed on? So a simple water change should help largely to eliminate them after cycle, right?

 

[tankstudy]

So wouldn't it stand to reason that if I'm able to get my nitrite levels down, there wouldn't be anything for those bacteria producing nitrates to feed on? So a simple water change should help largely to eliminate them after cycle, right?

Yes, reducing nitrites with water changes will indeed reduce nitrates but you don't want to do that.

Nitrites are much more harmful compared to nitrates. You want enough bacteria to consistently keep nitrites near non-existent. You would much rather have 20+ ppm nitrates versus 0.25 ppm nitrites. The goal of cycling is to max the amount of ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria one can have in his or her tank. If you start reducing the nitrite part ways thru the cycle, your going to have very few nitrite consuming bacteria and when nitrites appear because you don't have enough bacteria to consume the nitrite, everything in your tank will pretty much kick the bucket or fly in the direction.

 

[Xclusive Reef]

ph is at 8.2 salt is stable at 1.025, temp is at 81-82. ammonia 2.0 ppm n02/no3 both at 0. Dr. tim's i got shipped to me in like 48 hours from purchase. I bought it in may. It only expires in march 2018. Then I bought Stability from LFS. too bad we can't test for bacteria. When did you start to see nitrates and nitrites move? and ammonia?

 

[tankstudy]

ph is at 8.2 salt is stable at 1.025, temp is at 81-82. ammonia 2.0 ppm n02/no3 both at 0. Dr. tim's i got shipped to me in like 48 hours from purchase. I bought it in may. It only expires in march 2018. Then I bought Stability from LFS. too bad we can't test for bacteria. When did you start to see nitrates and nitrites move? and ammonia?

You can actually test for bacteria. When you test for nitrite, if nitrite appears, that is an indication for the existence of bacteria. If your not seeing changes, that means your bacteria probably died since the bottle was from May. Theoretically, if the bottle is kept properly, it should last till March 2018 but if it isn't, the bacteria in the bottle can die out much much sooner.

Using a viable bottle of Dr. Tim's, I can usually get a cycle done in just a few days.

 

[JakesReef209]

Yes, reducing nitrites with water changes will indeed reduce nitrates but you don't want to do that.

Nitrites are much more harmful compared to nitrates. You want enough bacteria to consistently keep nitrites near non-existent. You would much rather have 20+ ppm nitrates versus 0.25 ppm nitrites. The goal of cycling is to max the amount of ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria one can have in his or her tank. If you start reducing the nitrite part ways thru the cycle, your going to have very few nitrite consuming bacteria and when nitrites appear because you don't have enough bacteria to consume the nitrite, everything in your tank will pretty much kick the bucket or fly in the direction.

I think maybe we have confused each other. Or maybe I typed something incorrectly. You were the one who originally suggested a large water change to get the nitrates down. I was just asking if the nitrates would come down naturally towards the end of the cycle. Do you not suggest a water change? I understand fully that nitrites are more harmful than nitrates tho I don't believe leaving them as high as they are would be wise. Again if this is confusion due to a typo of mine I apologize

 

[Xclusive Reef]

You can actually test for bacteria. When you test for nitrite, if nitrite appears, that is an indication for the existence of bacteria. If your not seeing changes, that means your bacteria probably died since the bottle was from May. Theoretically, if the bottle is kept properly, it should last till March 2018 but if it isn't, the bacteria in the bottle can die out much much sooner.

Using a viable bottle of Dr. Tim's, I can usually get a cycle done in just a few days.

oh i see so the second bottle of bacteria is also dead? so in your option what i do? leave it or restart ?

 

[tankstudy]

I think maybe we have confused each other. Or maybe I typed something incorrectly. You were the one who originally suggested a large water change to get the nitrates down.

Do you not suggest a water change?

Must be some type of confusion I guess. Yes, I'd still recommend one once your done.

I was just asking if the nitrates would come down naturally towards the end of the cycle.

A majority of the time, no, nitrates will not come down by itself in newly cycled tanks. The bacteria that naturally consumes nitrates requires an environment that has rather low oxygen in order to use nitrate. Most tanks won't provide a large enough and suitable environment to get this type of bacteria to flourish.

 

[tankstudy]

oh i see so the second bottle of bacteria is also dead? so in your option what i do? leave it or restart ?

If it was me, I would just get a new bottle and dump it in.

At the same time, if you leave it alone with that 2 ppm ammonia, naturally their will be some bacteria there already but it just may take a long long long time before you start to notice any changes.

 

[Xclusive Reef]

If it was me, I would just get a new bottle and dump it in.

At the same time, if you leave it alone with that 2 ppm ammonia, naturally their will be some bacteria there already but it just may take a long long long time before you start to notice any changes.

what you mean dump it in like the whole thing?

 

[tankstudy]

what you mean dump it in like the whole thing?

Yeah, I dump the whole thing. I tend to do x3 times my tank size. For my 20 nuvo I used an entire 40 oz bottle. Bit pricey but you can't overdose the stuff.

 

[Idoc]

Must be some type of confusion I guess. Yes, I'd still recommend one once your done.



A majority of the time, no, nitrates will not come down by itself in newly cycled tanks. The bacteria that naturally consumes nitrates requires an environment that has rather low oxygen in order to use nitrate. Most tanks won't provide a large enough and suitable environment to get this type of bacteria to flourish.

Actually, I'm seeing much different results. During my cycle, i was concerned cuz my nitrates were hitting over 100ppm! I was going to do a water change and many just told me to ride it out, the nitrates would drop... and they did! I dropped to around 25ppm. My tank is now cycled, but I'm continuing to dose ammonia to continue building a larger bacterial population... my fish still have a couple more weeks in QT anyhow! But, something is decreasing those nitrates... yesterday, i had 50ppm, today 25ppm... It's dropping since the last dosing i did! I believe there are bacteria present converting the nitrates to nitrogen gas since nothing else to reduce them in this system.

 

[tankstudy]

Actually, I'm seeing much different results. During my cycle, i was concerned cuz my nitrates were hitting over 100ppm! I was going to do a water change and many just told me to ride it out, the nitrates would drop... and they did! I dropped to around 25ppm. My tank is now cycled, but I'm continuing to dose ammonia to continue building a larger bacterial population... my fish still have a couple more weeks in QT anyhow! But, something is decreasing those nitrates... yesterday, i had 50ppm, today 25ppm... It's dropping since the last dosing i did! I believe there are bacteria present converting the nitrates to nitrigen gas since nothing else to reduce them in this system.

Like I stated earlier, most of the time, most of us won't be able to get or sustain a large enough population of the nitrate consuming bacteria to drop nitrate but some people are lucky enough to.

 

[Idoc]

I definitely want to set up a QT tank but I have soo many questions about it.
Do they require the same filtration as a regular tank? What size should it be? Does it have to stay up and running constantly?
I see, without a doubt the massive value of having a QT system but if it's basically gunna be the cost of setting up a nano tank, I don't think I can swing it right now

Its easy and not expensive to setup a small QT.

- 10g tank
- Egg-crate to make cover
HOB Aquaclear filter (I've over sized mine to a model 50) plus extra sponges
- Heater
- 3 to 4" PVC elbow for fish to hide
- Airstone + small air pump
- Seachem ammonia alert badge
- Bottle of Bio-Spira
- Turkey baster
- API Copper Test Kit (if using chelated copper in CopperSafe)

Minimal Meds if prophylactically treating the fish:
- CopperSafe
- PraziPro

It's recommended to have some other meds on hand just in case problems arise. I also have Metro-Plex, Focus, Kanaplex, and Furan-2 on hand, but probably not necessary.

You don't need to cycle the QT... just soak the sponge in the HOB filter a couple hours in tank water with the BioSpira. Then run the filter (without the charcoal and bio-pellets that come with the filter). Dont keep the QT running all the time without fish in it... there have been a few posts on here lately detailing how the bacterial biofilm that builds up on the walls, etc... in the QT actually will diminish the effectiveness of the medications being used for treatment! Empty and clean the tank after each use.

Search through the articles on R2R. There are some great articles showing exactly how to setup a QT by @Humblefish and others on how to treat with Copper and Prazipro. I would attach links, but don't have them saved on this phone!

Any questions on the process, just ask away... so many on here with great knowledge!

 

[Xclusive Reef]

Its easy and not expensive to setup a small QT.

- 10g tank
- Egg-crate to make cover
HOB Aquaclear filter (I've over sized mine to a model 50) plus extra sponges
- Heater
- 3 to 4" PVC elbow for fish to hide
- Airstone + small air pump
- Seachem ammonia alert badge
- Bottle of Bio-Spira
- Turkey baster
- API Copper Test Kit (if using chelated copper in CopperSafe)

Minimal Meds if prophylactically treating the fish:
- CopperSafe
- PraziPro

It's recommended to have some other meds on hand just in case problems arise. I also have Metro-Plex, Focus, Kanaplex, and Furan-2 on hand, but probably not necessary.

You don't need to cycle the QT... just soak the sponge in the HOB filter a couple hours in tank water with the BioSpira. Then run the filter (without the charcoal and bio-pellets that come with the filter). Dont keep the QT running all the time without fish in it... there have been a few posts on here lately detailing how the bacterial biofilm that builds up on the walls, etc... in the QT actually will diminish the effectiveness of the medications being used for treatment! Empty and clean the tank after each use.

Search through the articles on R2R. There are some great articles showing exactly how to setup a QT by @Humblefish and others on how to treat with Copper and Prazipro. I would attach links, but don't have them saved on this phone!

Any questions on the process, just ask away... so many on here with great knowledge!

why can't you use charcoal?

 

[Idoc]

why can't you use charcoal?

The charcoal will remove the medications (those you are prophylactically using for treatment) from the water column. You can use it once you are done medicating to remove the excess medication... along with water changes.

 

[Tjnorfleet]

Just curious, why do you not use bacteria cultures? Stability, microbacter7 come to mind.

 

[JakesReef209]

Just curious, why do you not use bacteria cultures? Stability, microbacter7 come to mind.

I used Bio Spira on this tank and I'm feeding the bacteria with Dr. Tims ammonium chloride

 

[savetheocean]

I did a fish cycle, I didnt really know. Doing what my LFS told me, but you know what, they lived and they seemed happy.

 

[MT. Reefer]

Its easy and not expensive to setup a small QT.

- 10g tank
- Egg-crate to make cover
HOB Aquaclear filter (I've over sized mine to a model 50) plus extra sponges
- Heater
- 3 to 4" PVC elbow for fish to hide
- Airstone + small air pump
- Seachem ammonia alert badge
- Bottle of Bio-Spira
- Turkey baster
- API Copper Test Kit (if using chelated copper in CopperSafe)

Minimal Meds if prophylactically treating the fish:
- CopperSafe
- PraziPro

It's recommended to have some other meds on hand just in case problems arise. I also have Metro-Plex, Focus, Kanaplex, and Furan-2 on hand, but probably not necessary.

You don't need to cycle the QT... just soak the sponge in the HOB filter a couple hours in tank water with the BioSpira. Then run the filter (without the charcoal and bio-pellets that come with the filter). Dont keep the QT running all the time without fish in it... there have been a few posts on here lately detailing how the bacterial biofilm that builds up on the walls, etc... in the QT actually will diminish the effectiveness of the medications being used for treatment! Empty and clean the tank after each use.

Search through the articles on R2R. There are some great articles showing exactly how to setup a QT by @Humblefish and others on how to treat with Copper and Prazipro. I would attach links, but don't have them saved on this phone!

Any questions on the process, just ask away... so many on here with great knowledge!

If you're setting up a QT you should not use bottled bacteria if you are going to treat with copper. The copper will kill the bacteria and you've just wasted a bunch of money. If your QT is just meant to watch the fish without treating, then the Bio-Spira is a good idea. That is my favorite bacteria in a bottle.

 

[beaslbob]

in the bottle or in the tank? what are the chances that i got 2 bad bottles of bacteria?

IMHO pretty good.
but then it simply doesn't make any sense to me at all to pay for bacteria that build up free of charge with no stress to the fish.

my .02

You might want to lookup the chaeto sandwich in the diy section. Just use eggcrate to encase chaeto and use that as an in tank refugium

and you might also consider using a single male molly as your starter fish.

just suggestions.

Worth at most

.02