First saltwater tank, 40 breeder

[KleineVampir]

What do you think about a spot for some frags as well as some rocks on the other side? That way I get a taste of growing frags and since I'm only getting 2 clownfish anyways, they can just live on the rock part or whatever. This guy has a setup like that:

 

[KleineVampir]

btw, a practical question: Will the water ever clear up with the powerhead and HOB on? Still seems totally cloudy even after 4 hours. After adding the substrate of course.

 

[FishyDP]

You can set up your aquarium scape however you like, it is really preference. I would suggest having different heights to place frags, as different corals require different light intensity. If you would like to use a combination of racks (aka lighting diffuser or egg crate) and live rock to place your frags that should work, again it is really preference. The racks make it very easy to mount and organize your frags. Live rock will give you a more natural look. If mounting frags to live rock I suggest super glueing the frag plug to the rock, as they have a tendency to fall off of live rock. Just make sure to use super glue "gel" which can be found online or at a dollar store for very cheap. I would wait at least a couple months for your tank to stabilize before adding any coral. Adding fish before coral is also a suggestion I would make. You will find out that coral tends to be much more sensitive to bad water quality. Zoanthids are a good starter coral, and there are a ton of different colors available. Green star polyps are also a good starter coral and will add some nice color to your tank.

Regarding your water clearing up, you will need some type of filter media in your hob to absorb whatever is clouding up your water. Again, filter floss will be good for this. It will likely clear up on it's own, but will take much longer without some type of absorbing filter media.

 

[KleineVampir]

It has media, just not a ton of it. By this morning it finally cleared up for the most part. Anyways thanks for all your advice on coral. However, I have some practical concerns at the moment. So far I have saltwater with a heater, hob, and powerhead. Also I have substrate in the tank, some of it live. I'm dosing seachem stability, I think it is, to help get the tank cycled. The question is, what's next? I was thinking, do nothing until I get the light. Then get live rock. I figure live rock needs light, ha. Then I was thinking to get snails to prevent too much algae buildup and also to help cycle the tank. I was thinking trochus snails. Then probably the clownfish. After that, I'd get some coral, probably not much, and see how it does. This seems like the logical progression to me but let me know what you think.

 

[FishyDP]

It has media, just not a ton of it. By this morning it finally cleared up for the most part. Anyways thanks for all your advice on coral. However, I have some practical concerns at the moment. So far I have saltwater with a heater, hob, and powerhead. Also I have substrate in the tank, some of it live. I'm dosing seachem stability, I think it is, to help get the tank cycled. The question is, what's next? I was thinking, do nothing until I get the light. Then get live rock. I figure live rock needs light, ha. Then I was thinking to get snails to prevent too much algae buildup and also to help cycle the tank. I was thinking trochus snails. Then probably the clownfish. After that, I'd get some coral, probably not much, and see how it does. This seems like the logical progression to me but let me know what you think.

Sounds like a decent plan. I would recommend adding some live rock now. .75 - 1 lbs per gallon is the formula I use. You can get all live rock or get a combination of live rock and dry rock. Your live sand should help the cycle, but the jury is still out on bagged live sand and its effectiveness. I dont like to rely on it for cycling personally.

You do not "need" light for the cycle. If you want to get an early start on coraline algae you can add a light, along with some source of coraline algae, such as live rock with some on it. At this point my recommendation is to add a very small amount of fish food to your tank daily, and let it run with no live stock for at least 2-3 weeks. Then test your water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. If your ammonia and nitrite levels are close to 0, and you have more than a 5ppm nitrate reading do a 25% water change and add some snails, trochus are good. You could also add some hermits, I like blue legged hermits. Keep testing until you have 0 ammonia and nitrite and your nitrate levels are rising, and then think about adding the clowns. I have had cycles happen in 3 weeks, some take 6+ weeks. The most important thing is to have 0 ammonia/nitrite readings, and rising nitrate readings. I would also do another 25% water change before adding the clowns. I would highly recommend a hob protein skimmer for your setup, after the tank has cycled. I have only used the bottled bacteria type products once, and it did not seem to do much, so I cannot comment on this for cycling. Good luck!

Of course if you have more questions I can try and help..along with other members.

 

[KleineVampir]

Coraline algae, huh? It's good you brought that up because I did not know that existed! I'm guessing you want coraline algae to help to out-compete more nuisance types of algae? If I'm gonna have algae anyways it should be the best kind! But maybe it doesn't work like that exactly.

So moving on to test kits...I already have a lot of freshwater tests that I can do. Will none of those work for saltwater? And if not should I just bite the bullet and buy the test kits for saltwater? There's one for basic stuff and there's the reef one for your calcium and so forth. I figure I at least need the reef one either way. The other question is, how big are your minerals and alkalinity in saltwater aquatics? And if I want more (presumably only RO brings levels down) how should I go about that? If I have coral will they basically need to be "fed" calcium in order for them to build their skeletons?

 

[Jacob Fawley]

I'm assuming you mean the API Reef Kit. If you're going with API, I believe that all of the nitrogen test kits and phosphate test kits work with both fresh and saltwater. You don't necessarily NEED the Calcium and Alkalinity test kits yet, but you will need them if you plan on eventually keeping stony corals and inverts that require them (snails, shrimp, crabs, lps, sps, etc.). Also, pH is pretty important in general. As for the minerals, generally, your salt mix should be enough for the basic needs of your tank. This is also where choosing the right salt mix for YOU is important. Right now, your demands for minerals are basically nothing. As you add inverts and corals the demand will increase and you will need to test the water. This is why water changes in the saltwater hobby are important. They not only dilute waste, but they also replace lost minerals. As your demand increases, you may consider changing the water more frequently or changing to a more elevated salt mix or adding minerals back directly.

 

[Jacob Fawley]

To make it easier on yourself, I would stick to the low demand corals and inverts at first. Zoanthids, Green star polyps, leather corals, mushrooms, xenia, etc. (all soft corals). Snails, hermits, and shrimp do have a calcium demand, but it's really not that high because of their maximum size. I would stay away from clams though.

 

[KleineVampir]

Thanks for the info...my question is, do coral do anything good for the water? I guess they seem pretty neutral to me. They just want light and some calcium carbonate, apparently.

 

[Jacob Fawley]

Most corals have a symbiotic relationship with zooxanthellae - a type of algae. The algae in the tissues of the corals perform photosynthesis and take up nutrients from the waste products of the coral while doing so. The corals themselves are provided with nutrients in the form of sugars and amino acids, as well as oxygen.

 

[Jacob Fawley]

Overall, the process isn't neutral. The nutrients are consumed and put towards building the coral's tissue and skeleton. Any waste leftover is given back to the algae.

 

[KleineVampir]

Overall, the process isn't neutral. The nutrients are consumed and put towards building the coral's tissue and skeleton. Any waste leftover is given back to the algae.

In that case it sounds like they are good then. If they eat nutrients that algae eat, that's something. Is it a stretch to say coral help with algae or is it true? Also where are they finding sugar and amino acids? I wouldn't think that would be present in the tank normally. Maybe if some kind of fauna died then maybe I can see the amino acids, but I don't know where sugars would come from.

At first I didn't understand why you said the process isn't neutral but now I'm thinking you meant that things are indeed taken from the water and stored in the coral..in other words they're taking but not giving back. I get that. My question was if their impact on the aquarium is good or not, particularly in regards to ammonia. I want to fight ammonia as much as possible in this tank since that's basically what I believe in doing in general.

 

[Jacob Fawley]

In that case it sounds like they are good then. If they eat nutrients that algae eat, that's something. Is it a stretch to say coral help with algae or is it true? Also where are they finding sugar and amino acids? I wouldn't think that would be present in the tank normally. Maybe if some kind of fauna died then maybe I can see the amino acids, but I don't know where sugars would come from.

At first I didn't understand why you said the process isn't neutral but now I'm thinking you meant that things are indeed taken from the water and stored in the coral..in other words they're taking but not giving back. I get that. My question was if their impact on the aquarium is good or not, particularly in regards to ammonia. I want to fight ammonia as much as possible in this tank since that's basically what I believe in doing in general.

The sugars are a product of photosynthesis. Plants and algae have the unique ability to make any amino acid, given they have the base components. Humans and animals can make some of their own amino acids, however, they must be supplied with at least what are called "essential amino acids". We get these from eating things such as other animals and plants (sorry I'm ranting, studying biochemistry). Anyways, In regards to ammonia consumption, the corals can't hurt. In tanks absolutely packed with corals, a lot of the nutrient uptake could be attributed to the corals. However, I would not rely on corals as your main source of filtration and nutrient uptake. That takes a long time to establish. I would focus on providing bacteria surfaces to grow. If you're looking for additional ammonia and phosphate uptake, I would look into setting up a HOB Refugium or MacroAlgae reactor. These can work extremely well and are usually easier to set up near the beginning of a tank IME. Keep in mind even with all this nutrient reduction, water changes are still important, and that this will only reduce their need.

 

[Jacob Fawley]

This build is similar to your situation (sumpless mid sized tank). Consider following:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/gjs-50-gallon-sumpless-reef.584037/

 

[High ICP]

What do you think about a spot for some frags as well as some rocks on the other side? That way I get a taste of growing frags and since I'm only getting 2 clownfish anyways, they can just live on the rock part or whatever. This guy has a setup like that:

Gross

 

[High ICP]

The sugars are a product of photosynthesis. Plants and algae have the unique ability to make any amino acid, given they have the base components. Humans and animals can make some of their own amino acids, however, they must be supplied with at least what are called "essential amino acids". We get these from eating things such as other animals and plants (sorry I'm ranting, studying biochemistry). Anyways, In regards to ammonia consumption, the corals can't hurt. In tanks absolutely packed with corals, a lot of the nutrient uptake could be attributed to the corals. However, I would not rely on corals as your main source of filtration and nutrient uptake. That takes a long time to establish. I would focus on providing bacteria surfaces to grow. If you're looking for additional ammonia and phosphate uptake, I would look into setting up a HOB Refugium or MacroAlgae reactor. These can work extremely well and are usually easier to set up near the beginning of a tank IME. Keep in mind even with all this nutrient reduction, water changes are still important, and that this will only reduce their need.

Corals do not uptake ammonia

They give off ammonium, which turns into ammonia.

Weird take, unless I misunderstand you

 

[KleineVampir]

I don't know, if I'm gonna do a refugium I might just get me a proper sump. I only have 1 other tank. I guess I tend to optimize each tank I get before moving onto the next one. Seems like refugiums are the best (if not one of the only) way to reduce ammonia and like I said that is something I like to do. That said, if anybody has anything useful to say about sumps I would appreciate it, but of course I will be doing my own research. Still sometimes a bit of guidance from somebody who knows your particular situation can count for a lot, which is why I'm here.

Probably my biggest reservation about sumps is that it must take a lot of energy to pump the water up from the sump all the time. Water is heavy and doesn't like going up! At least with a hob it's a lot easier energy-wise. For somebody who really appreciates efficiency in all its forms I'm not sure a sump is right for me. Also I have to wonder how the algae stays in the refugiums. I guess if it forms on solid objects and surfaces, those won't go anywhere. But what about in the water? Seems like you're gonna be growing and shooting some algae out into your tank!

BTW can I really get live rock before I get lights? I don't want anything in there to die because I don't have enough light.

 

[dwayvick]

I don't know, if I'm gonna do a refugium I might just get me a proper sump. I only have 1 other tank. I guess I tend to optimize each tank I get before moving onto the next one. Seems like refugiums are the best (if not one of the only) way to reduce ammonia and like I said that is something I like to do. That said, if anybody has anything useful to say about sumps I would appreciate it, but of course I will be doing my own research. Still sometimes a bit of guidance from somebody who knows your particular situation can count for a lot, which is why I'm here.

Probably my biggest reservation about sumps is that it must take a lot of energy to pump the water up from the sump all the time. Water is heavy and doesn't like going up! At least with a hob it's a lot easier energy-wise. For somebody who really appreciates efficiency in all its forms I'm not sure a sump is right for me. Also I have to wonder how the algae stays in the refugiums. I guess if it forms on solid objects and surfaces, those won't go anywhere. But what about in the water? Seems like you're gonna be growing and shooting some algae out into your tank!

BTW can I really get live rock before I get lights? I don't want anything in there to die because I don't have enough light.

The return pump for my 40b runs at 11watts currently, not a major issue. Macro algae is more plant like and will not typically make it from the refugium to the return zone to the tank via the plumbing. A sump will add another layer of stability to your system, which in my experience is the number one goal. definitely spend some time researching sump setups, the initial effort is worth it!

 

[Jacob Fawley]

Corals do not uptake ammonia

They give off ammonium, which turns into ammonia.

Weird take, unless I misunderstand you

I’m not saying that the corals themselves uptake ammonia, rather that the algae within them certainly do.

 

[Jacob Fawley]

I don't know, if I'm gonna do a refugium I might just get me a proper sump. I only have 1 other tank. I guess I tend to optimize each tank I get before moving onto the next one. Seems like refugiums are the best (if not one of the only) way to reduce ammonia and like I said that is something I like to do. That said, if anybody has anything useful to say about sumps I would appreciate it, but of course I will be doing my own research. Still sometimes a bit of guidance from somebody who knows your particular situation can count for a lot, which is why I'm here.

Probably my biggest reservation about sumps is that it must take a lot of energy to pump the water up from the sump all the time. Water is heavy and doesn't like going up! At least with a hob it's a lot easier energy-wise. For somebody who really appreciates efficiency in all its forms I'm not sure a sump is right for me. Also I have to wonder how the algae stays in the refugiums. I guess if it forms on solid objects and surfaces, those won't go anywhere. But what about in the water? Seems like you're gonna be growing and shooting some algae out into your tank!

BTW can I really get live rock before I get lights? I don't want anything in there to die because I don't have enough light.

I depends on the pump you get. Some are more efficient than others. Macro algae usually doesn’t make its way into the display. Even if it does, it’s a lot easier to remove. There are some cases were it becomes a problem though. My refugium has a coarse sponge following it to prevent the algae from making it to the pump (it’s in a sump). As for the sump advice. It may seem daunting but it’s really not that difficult to learn. Having a drilled tank with an overflow box is the safest option, especially if there’s multiple drain lines. There’s always the HOB overflow boxes, but those rely on a continuous siphon to drain the water. As for the sump itself, there’s loads of options. When choosing the sump you should consider how much space you have available, what you want to do in the sump, and making sure your return pump fits in the pump chamber.