First Time Dosing

CyanoFarmer · Feb 12, 2013

Hello all,

I'm new here and was hoping to pick your brains!! No I'm not a zombie, just a clueless reefer haha!

So my tank is a 27 gallon cube mixed reef. I have all sps in the top portion of the tank, zoanthid and palythoas in the bottom half, along with a couple maxima clams, frogspawn, as well as three really nice scolys.

For filtration I have a HOB Aquafuge 2, the small model, using some GFO in a bag in the intake section of the HOB, an mp10 for water movement, and a ever grow d120 light fixture.

My parameters are:

PH- 8.0
ALK- 7.0
Cal- 410
Mag- 1320
The rest of the parameters are at zero. Including nitrates and phosphates.

My question is I've been trying to attempt dosing reef fusion part 1 and 2 and I can't seem to keep up with the intake of the corals.

Yesterday I tested and my alk was at 8.0 so I gave it a dose to raise it to 9.0. I'm using the reef chemistry calculator that everyone seems to like.

I didn't dose any calcium.

Is it possible that my tank is sucking up this much alk? If I was at 8dkh and dosed to 9dkh I technically should be at the very least 8.5dkh.

I'm pretty much lost at this point. I don't think I will be able to keep up with manual dosing if my tank is in fact uptaking 2dkh a day!

This is why I'm here, I have no clue as to what's going on despite having read as much as I can.

I would like to have my tank at 9dkh or slightly higher, and cal to be at 480.

I will also be getting rid of the HOB fuge really soon as I'm going to build an acrylic sump/fuge.

Should I dose, or should I do kalk in the ato? As you can see I'm totally lost here!

Thanks in advance to any tips, advice, as well as guidance.

fragmatic · Feb 12, 2013

Do you dose your alk and cal at different parts of your tank or different times? If they "find" each other they will "sort of" cancel each other out. I dose my alk to my overflow and my cal to the tank. My alk runs at 9.5 and can get as high as 11 at extreme times. My cal runs steady at 480 and sometimes it gets to 500. IMO yes, you should dose.

CyanoFarmer · Feb 12, 2013

fragmatic said:
Do you dose your alk and cal at different parts of your tank or different times? If they "find" each other they will "sort of" cancel each other out. I dose my alk to my overflow and my cal to the tank. My alk runs at 9.5 and can get as high as 11 at extreme times. My cal runs steady at 480 and sometimes it gets to 500. IMO yes, you should dose.

Currently what I've been doing is dosing cal first, waiting about an hour then dosing alk. Both are dosed right at my mp 10 in the hopes that they mix thoroughly enough in that hour.

Singlefin · Feb 12, 2013

If possible, you should break up your daily dose through out the day. This is where a dosing pump comes in handy. This keeps you numbers from spiking and dropping when you dose. That being said, make sure your mag. Is good, which it looks like it is, before adjusting ca. And alk. The numbers you are shooting for seem a little on the high side. My 40b uses 1dkh of alk and 10ppm of calcium a day. I have a pump so I break that daily dose up into 16 parts a day. Every 1/2 hour,either alk. Ca. Or mag is added to my tank. Not so much mag. It's a much smaller dose 8x a day.

Singlefin · Feb 12, 2013

You should do a water change, wait an hour or so, then test all your parameters. Wait 24hrs and test again to see what you tank consumes in a day. Then adjust your dose accordingly. Manually dosing gets lame fast. You could also get an I've drip line and drip a daily batch into your tank. Mix it with Rodi to stretch it longer.

CyanoFarmer · Feb 13, 2013

Hey thanks guys! I appreciate the tips. I will do a water change and test, wait a full 24 hours and retest to see what I'm using and then start dosing.

Someone gave me a strange method that hasn't worked and I'm glad I've signed up here. There is a wealth of knowledge and I hope to contribute some of mine. It's mostly freshwater lol, but I have been reading a lot and have learned from some of the things I've been doing.

So dosing pumps it is!! I've read an equal amount of positive as well as negative comments regarding kalk in the ATO. I would prefer to go the safer route and just get some good dosing pumps so I can control it.

Thanks again I really do appreciate it.

fragmatic · Feb 13, 2013

CyanoFarmer said:
Currently what I've been doing is dosing cal first, waiting about an hour then dosing alk. Both are dosed right at my mp 10 in the hopes that they mix thoroughly enough in that hour.

Ummmh.. the thing is you don't really want your cal and alk dose to mix for as long as you can delay it. Once they mix they bind and sink out and do little if any good to the life forms needing them. For example, I am in process of building a dose system so I can dose at different times, in different places. Until I get my dose system up and running I'm playing about the same game as you, except I dose to the tank and the sump respectively.

mike007 · Feb 13, 2013

If you want a cheap method of dosing Kent makes a doser kind of like a iv bag and it works great and is cheap.

mcarroll · Feb 17, 2013

CyanoFarmer said:
My question is I've been trying to attempt dosing reef fusion part 1 and 2 and I can't seem to keep up with the intake of the corals.

I feel like I've posted some of this info a lot, but it's usually theoretical and your case is a perfect real example.

First, if you have any doubts about your ability to use your test kit, get that worked out. If you have any doubts about the accuracy of your test kit, first check the kit's expiration date. As long as it's before it's date it should be alright. If you feel that a replacement is in order, Salifert's alk, cal and mag kits are generally the preferred tool, but there are others that are fine to use as well. Really your ability to run the test consistently from test to test is what's most important. To this end it's also very helpful to run your tests at the same time of day every time as CO2 buildup at night and O2 buildup during the day will have an influence on the results.

Second, there is no reason you would be unable to keep up with dosing. I do recommend using a doser or two if you can afford/build them but for the record I was manually dosing (via dripper) 250mL per day when I made the switch to dosers. Just test and dose daily until you have your dosing routine down pat...then you can cut back to weekly testing...depending on how stable your tank becomes you may eventually get away with testing even less. Also, I think you have discovered what many of us know: 9dKH does not give you much headroom before the tank can get into the "danger zone" of 7 or below. I recommend doing what I and other successful stony coral nuts have done in your situation and make 11dKH your alkalinity target. 11 dKH alk, 420 ppm Ca and 1325 Mg were always my dosing targets. (Things play out differently under a doser, but worry about that when you have a doser.)

Third, I'm not familiar with the product you are using, so this may be a recommendation or just informational, but take a look a Brightwell's Alkalin8.3 and Calcion. (You can read the labels on their website if there's no place local to get your hands on them.) The products themselves probably aren't too different, but Brightwell gives you the information, instruction and theory to get you started right. (I think all your concerns posted here are covered, in fact.) So even if you don't switch to Brightwell (which I would recommend doing) at least look at the label (especially the "advanced" instructions) and compare with what you have...learn as much as you can from that. Switch if you feel it's warranted.

Last, if you haven't already maxed out your waterchange schedule, do that. As long as you are using a fortified salt (like Reef Crystals) it will cut down somewhat on your dosing requirements. Similarly, I do recommend adding kalk to your ATO system by way of a reactor like the Tunze 5074. TLF makes a similar unit. It's a no-brainer, especially after your tank's consumption is fairly high as you'll just load the max recommended amount of kalk to the reactor and just refill it very occasionally.

I know I said "last" but one more overall point: any time you make changes to the tank (new coral, new doser, new reagents, new salt, etc) you should start over wiith your daily testing routine for at least a short time so you can be on top of changes in alkalinity demand before there is any impact on the tank.

I hope this helps!

-Matt

CyanoFarmer · Feb 18, 2013

fragmatic said:
Ummmh.. the thing is you don't really want your cal and alk dose to mix for as long as you can delay it. Once they mix they bind and sink out and do little if any good to the life forms needing them. For example, I am in process of building a dose system so I can dose at different times, in different places. Until I get my dose system up and running I'm playing about the same game as you, except I dose to the tank and the sump respectively.

I dose both alk and cal an hour apart and have an mp-10 blasting in there right now. But I did read that you need to wait quite a while between dosing both products.

mike007 said:
If you want a cheap method of dosing Kent makes a doser kind of like a iv bag and it works great and is cheap.

I've seen that kent doser before. I don't mind spending the cash on some equipment that will be precise.

mcarroll said:
I feel like I've posted some of this info a lot, but it's usually theoretical and your case is a perfect real example.

First, if you have any doubts about your ability to use your test kit, get that worked out. If you have any doubts about the accuracy of your test kit, first check the kit's expiration date. As long as it's before it's date it should be alright. If you feel that a replacement is in order, Salifert's alk, cal and mag kits are generally the preferred tool, but there are others that are fine to use as well. Really your ability to run the test consistently from test to test is what's most important. To this end it's also very helpful to run your tests at the same time of day every time as CO2 buildup at night and O2 buildup during the day will have an influence on the results.

Second, there is no reason you would be unable to keep up with dosing. I do recommend using a doser or two if you can afford/build them but for the record I was manually dosing (via dripper) 250mL per day when I made the switch to dosers. Just test and dose daily until you have your dosing routine down pat...then you can cut back to weekly testing...depending on how stable your tank becomes you may eventually get away with testing even less. Also, I think you have discovered what many of us know: 9dKH does not give you much headroom before the tank can get into the "danger zone" of 7 or below. I recommend doing what I and other successful stony coral nuts have done in your situation and make 11dKH your alkalinity target. 11 dKH alk, 420 ppm Ca and 1325 Mg were always my dosing targets. (Things play out differently under a doser, but worry about that when you have a doser.)

Third, I'm not familiar with the product you are using, so this may be a recommendation or just informational, but take a look a Brightwell's Alkalin8.3 and Calcion. (You can read the labels on their website if there's no place local to get your hands on them.) The products themselves probably aren't too different, but Brightwell gives you the information, instruction and theory to get you started right. (I think all your concerns posted here are covered, in fact.) So even if you don't switch to Brightwell (which I would recommend doing) at least look at the label (especially the "advanced" instructions) and compare with what you have...learn as much as you can from that. Switch if you feel it's warranted.

Last, if you haven't already maxed out your waterchange schedule, do that. As long as you are using a fortified salt (like Reef Crystals) it will cut down somewhat on your dosing requirements. Similarly, I do recommend adding kalk to your ATO system by way of a reactor like the Tunze 5074. TLF makes a similar unit. It's a no-brainer, especially after your tank's consumption is fairly high as you'll just load the max recommended amount of kalk to the reactor and just refill it very occasionally.

I know I said "last" but one more overall point: any time you make changes to the tank (new coral, new doser, new reagents, new salt, etc) you should start over wiith your daily testing routine for at least a short time so you can be on top of changes in alkalinity demand before there is any impact on the tank.

I hope this helps!

-Matt

Thanks Matt, that is a great wealth of tips you've just posted!

For your first point, I do use the salfert test kits and they are only a month or so old.

For the second point and third, I was thinking of getting some dosers since I have an apex and could hook it up to that. Would using dosers be preferred to doing kalk in the ATO? If I can get away with doing that, it would be preferred. I like to keep it simple and limit the amount of moving parts if possible.

For the fourth point, I've been using fluval salt and it matches what they're claiming on the bag. I believe it's at 9.5dkh, 470 cal, and 1320 mag. I do a 7 gallon per week water change currently.

So I guess my question would be: would it be better to use dosers, or could I just do kalk in the ato?

Thanks for the tips so far, I really do appreciate them. I don't mind spending money on equipment, but less moving parts is better for me.

mcarroll · Feb 18, 2013

A drip doser is fine for accuracy and I would heartily recommend one if you don't want to make your own....you have to consider how it's used, which is not like a pump-based doser. To begin with, you'll test and see where your level is currently. Based on the chemical's instructions, calculate how much your dose needs to be to correct your level - this is where the accuracy comes in. Measure out the calculated amount, put it in your dripper (maybe diluted with RODI) and you're set to dose a totally accurate amount into the tank safely.

Honestly, even if you run pump based dosers, I might suggest having a dripper like this on hand for when manual adjustment might need to be made...at least for alk.

Also, unless I've misunderstood, your thinking on dosers is a little upside down in terms of simplicity. Adding kalk to your existing ATO would be dead simple. Adding pumps is where you get more and more moving parts and compexity with timer schedules and such. (To be clear I do still recommend dosing pumps where you can afford them...but be realistic about it.)

I would still add kalk even if you go with dosing pumps. Lime is dirt cheap and it will cut back (or even replace if you wanted it to...ask if you want a link about this) on your two-part dosing.

Salt numbers look OK, but if you end up dosing manually, I would keep your alk higher, around 11dKH, if you have stony corals in the tank. With continuous dosing (pumps) 9.5dKh is prolly fine.

-Matt

Davinci · Feb 18, 2013

Ok, my advice would be to change salts to red sea coral pro. I love that salt because it has all the water levels that I want my reef to be. the alk is at 12 in that salt, ph is 8.3, mag at 1400 and calcium at 450. As for your reef using so much alk, its possible but I do believe you need to raise mag to 1400 and maybe that will have some impact. Also, if you started to have the parameters recently, it is possible that the corals were a little starved and when you got the parameter that they liked they just started to use up all the alk. I would do the switch in salts that way you dont have to dose that much and much of the levels you want will be from the bag to begin with.

CyanoFarmer · Feb 19, 2013

Hey thanks for all the tips everyone.

I really appreciate them. Despite having kept various aquaria for nearly 30 years, reefkeeping has been a challenge and I'm glad that these types of forums exist.