Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)

[Brew12]

Good info. How prevalent are hypo-resistant ich strains or does anybody know? I ask because TTM isn't really feasible for me. I use GC and CP or copper (copper when CP isn't recommended), but if I decided to go with no medications, I would probably have to use hyposalinity.

Its hard to say. This forum section is full of people who have tried hypo with no success. It is hard to quantify though, since we have no idea how many people have tried and succeeded since they are less likely to come back and post again. We also don't know if the people who did not have good results carried out the hypo correctly. Too many variables.

 

[Humblefish]

How prevalent are hypo-resistant ich strains or does anybody know?

Two strains have been discovered thus far:

More recently, studies have demonstrated different salinity tolerances among strains of Cryptocaryon. Yambot (2003) described one Taiwanese outbreak occurring in sea bream Sparus sarba at a salinity of 5 g/L, and another outbreak in sea perch Lates calcarifer occurring at a salinity of 10 g/L. These two strains were successfully propagated in the laboratory at 7 and 10 g/L, respectively, and are well below previously documented preferred salinities.

Source: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

 

[Dizzirn]

If you need a good source for Chloquine Phosphate, I have it...

What is it?

 

[rich nyc]

If you don't have enough dt tanks for tank transfer, is it ok to use copper for my flasher wrasses. I don't quite understand what a 2 means. Thanks

 

[Humblefish]

If you don't have enough dt tanks for tank transfer, is it ok to use copper for my flasher wrasses. I don't quite understand what a 2 means. Thanks

I would recommend using a chelated copper product (e.g. Coppersafe, Copper Power) on a wrasse over ionic copper e.g. Cupramine.

 

[rich nyc]

Ugh. Ok I have cupramine. Will I be able to still use my salifert test kit or do i need another one. Thanks, rich

 

[melypr1985]

Ugh. Ok I have cupramine. Will I be able to still use my salifert test kit or do i need another one. Thanks, rich

For coppersafe, you will need the API test kit.

 

[ShaunRobinson]

Can I ask if anybody has heard of any issues regarding CP fairly soon after copper treatment? Has anybody run both courses?

 

[melypr1985]

Can I ask if anybody has heard of any issues regarding CP fairly soon after copper treatment? Has anybody run both courses?

I have. Though there isn't much of a reason to do both except in extreme (and rare) cases. The most common of which would be that the fish being treated with copper aren't tolerating it well so an alternative method would be needed. Of course, if you have CP then why not just use that first? Except in cases where the fish are CP intolerant of course. lol

 

[ShaunRobinson]

I have. Though there isn't much of a reason to do both except in extreme (and rare) cases. The most common of which would be that the fish being treated with copper aren't tolerating it well so an alternative method would be needed. Of course, if you have CP then why not just use that first? Except in cases where the fish are CP intolerant of course. lol

I agree, Cp would certainly be my first choice of treatment. I can't see any reason for using both treatments.

The reason for asking is that I have read of a couple of guys treating with copper and then after removing the copper from the system a few days afterwards treating with CP. In both cases the fish have reacted badly to the CP.

In my view there wasn't a long enough period between treatments? The fish will have already taken a knock with the copper before subjecting them to a further treatment. I am trying to ascertain whether there is any information on how cp may react with any residual copper left in the system?

 

[tastyfish]

I agree, Cp would certainly be my first choice of treatment. I can't see any reason for using both treatments.

The reason for asking is that I have read of a couple of guys treating with copper and then after removing the copper from the system a few days afterwards treating with CP. In both cases the fish have reacted badly to the CP.

In my view there wasn't a long enough period between treatments? The fish will have already taken a knock with the copper before subjecting them to a further treatment. I am trying to ascertain whether there is any information on how cp may react with any residual copper left in the system?

I believe there could be a few reasons behind this.

Firstly, copper is a toxin, it's detrimental to both fish and parasite health and some fish tolerate it better than others. In any case, a recovery time needs to be implemented between courses of any medicine to clear both the tank and the fish's bodies of the medication, ensure they are feeding etc.

Secondly, diagnosis. Copper is broad, and it's often better to use a wide ranging treatment like copper if the diagnosis is uncertain. But isn't a wonder treatment. There have been reported strains of Cryptocaryon and Oodinium Occelatum which appear hypo, CP or copper resistant. It could be that even if correctly identified, a resistant strain is present.

Thirdly, ammonia - QT tanks typically have very immature filtration systems and ammonia build up and spikes are a big problem. These either directly affect the health of the fish and/or allow something else to take hold.

Lastly (and I refer to treating with CP here as that's where my experience lies), treatment can often lead to bacterial infections taking hold. I have experienced this a couple of times and copper and chloroquine are of no help in this case. In my last full tank QT, I was forced to abandon CP on day 20 and quickly introduce an antibacterial treatment due to this taking hold.

My preferred treatment is always CP, but there are times where another medication may be best applied

 

[Humblefish]

Lastly (and I refer to treating with CP here as that's where my experience lies), treatment can often lead to bacterial infections taking hold. I have experienced this a couple of times and copper and chloroquine are of no help in this case. In my last full tank QT, I was forced to abandon CP on day 20 and quickly introduce an antibacterial treatment due to this taking hold.

Good post. I wrote this specifically to address the scenario you described: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/the-bacterial-infection-predicament.315/

 

[rich nyc]

Thanks so looking at this awesome chart, I guess if you were going to use copper, coppersafe would be the choice over cuperamine which is ironic because cupramine was the only kind of copper sold at my lfs.

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks so looking at this awesome chart, I guess if you were going to use copper, coppersafe would be the choice over cuperamine which is ironic because cupramine was the only kind of copper sold at my lfs.

In my opinion coppersafe is the better product. HOWEVER, they are actually both good products that get the job done. They are just different types of copper and different fish will react differently with each. I find I have better results and less reactions to the coppersafe over the cupramine.

 

[4FordFamily]

In my opinion coppersafe is the better product. HOWEVER, they are actually both good products that get the job done. They are just different types of copper and different fish will react differently with each. I find I have better results and less reactions to the coppersafe over the cupramine.

Anecdotally, I’ve had less issue treating my wrasses in ionic copper/cupramine than chelated copper (I use coppersafe).

I’m working on about 20 in each now, over the years. Small beans to some but enough to convince me.

 

[Crashjack]

Anecdotally, I’ve had less issue treating my wrasses in ionic copper/cupramine than chelated copper (I use coppersafe).

I’m working on about 20 in each now, over the years. Small beans to some but enough to convince me.

I wonder if the testing has something to do with it. The API test is almost worthless IMO. Hence, someone might over/under dose due to misreading the tests.

 

[4FordFamily]

I wonder if the testing has something to do with it. The API test is almost worthless IMO. Hence, someone might over/under dose due to misreading the tests.

I seem to lose halichoeres wrasse before copper reaches 2/3-3/4 therapeutic levels. I didn’t experience that with cupramine until I added prazi concurrently when I noticed flukes. It was therapeutic for days prior. Lots of oxygen I have powerhead pointed up, big HOB filter that splashes a lot, AND a bubbler. But we know wrasse are sensitive to both medications, and I knew it was a risk to mix them.

Interestingly, but anecdotally, an established halichoeres did not seem to struggle in either copper at all. Did an old Melanarus, vroliks, and lime green that had been owned by me or another hobbyist for at least 6 months and went 3/3 successes. I’m probably 1/7 with halichoeres that are new shipment in chelated copper. I increase it over 5-7 days slowly and wait a few days before beginning dose until they’re eating.

My leopards have all done fine in either except for my kuiteri male. But it may not have been copper that killed it. They’re fragile.

 

[abossi2]

Does anyone have any experience with a White Tail Bristletooth Tang and CP? I saw that a Kole Tang (another Bristletooth) was on the list as a 1 with CP so hopefully the White Tail would be the same. I am considering the White Tail and I want to be very careful with the QT meds since it is such an expensive fish (for me). @Humblefish or @melypr1985 have you heard of any negatives with this fish?

 

[melypr1985]

Does anyone have any experience with a White Tail Bristletooth Tang and CP? I saw that a Kole Tang (another Bristletooth) was on the list as a 1 with CP so hopefully the White Tail would be the same. I am considering the White Tail and I want to be very careful with the QT meds since it is such an expensive fish (for me). @Humblefish or @melypr1985 have you heard of any negatives with this fish?

I've never run a white tail through cp, but currently have a Yellow Eye Kole in cp and he is doing just fine. I wouldn't expect to see any appreciable difference with a white tail.

 

[billw]

Does anyone have any experience with a White Tail Bristletooth Tang and CP? I saw that a Kole Tang (another Bristletooth) was on the list as a 1 with CP so hopefully the White Tail would be the same. I am considering the White Tail and I want to be very careful with the QT meds since it is such an expensive fish (for me). @Humblefish or @melypr1985 have you heard of any negatives with this fish?

I've run a 2 spot Bristletooth (Ctenochaetus Binotatus) through Chloroquine without visible behavior or eating issues.