Fish Die Quickly

[RandyRovegno]

HELP.

I have had countless problems with my tanks regarding new fish dying in the first week over the years. So recently, I started over with a 120G including new saltwater/RODI, new live sand, sun bleached rocks (sat outside for a month), and new equipment.

After cycling, I started with a few Chromis (one died) and now I have three. I recently added a docile Toby Box Puffer who seems to do well but fish had died before/after him. I have slowly tried to add fish and I'm starting to have the same 5-10 day deaths each time. I lost 2 clowns after a week (same day), a Bicolor angel after 4 days, and a Powder Brown tang who was doing well for three weeks and just died suddenly. (All weeks apart, not adding all at once)

Bicolor and clowns appeared to eat (chase the mysis shrimp, and Larry's) but I couldn't be 100% certain they actually ate.

The Brown tang was doing well, eating, etc and then the last day I noticed him swimming all over, agitated, and he did swipe the bottom a few times. He died that night. None of the fish show any physical trauma, spots, or anything abnormal.

I also have 2 nems who are ok (one was the only original moved from the Fallow tank after 60 days), 10 coral frags and some are doing ok (toadstool, torch, Xenia) and some are struggling (Duncan and a few hard corals.)

I acclimate fish via drip but I hadn't started these in a QT tank as everything was all new and I thought I didn't need to? Maybe that's my mistake but I'd love to have the Forum's help to determine why everything dies after a week. If I need to Fallow, will that solve the problem?

Numbers:
Salinity 36PPT (always trying to get to 35)
Temp: 79
PH: 8
Nitrite/Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate (cheap test kit) : between 0 and .25

PLEASE HELP.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I would suggest an ICP test of your source water after it has been rocessed by your RODI filter, and another ICP of the water in your tank.

There must be some contaminant.

Also look around and consider the environment. Any sprays, smoke etc around the tank?
Any other Pets that may be dipping into the tank?
Any children?

 

[vetteguy53081]

HELP.

I have had countless problems with my tanks regarding new fish dying in the first week over the years. So recently, I started over with a 120G including new saltwater/RODI, new live sand, sun bleached rocks (sat outside for a month), and new equipment.

After cycling, I started with a few Chromis (one died) and now I have three. I recently added a docile Toby Box Puffer who seems to do well but fish had died before/after him. I have slowly tried to add fish and I'm starting to have the same 5-10 day deaths each time. I lost 2 clowns after a week (same day), a Bicolor angel after 4 days, and a Powder Brown tang who was doing well for three weeks and just died suddenly. (All weeks apart, not adding all at once)

Bicolor and clowns appeared to eat (chase the mysis shrimp, and Larry's) but I couldn't be 100% certain they actually ate.

The Brown tang was doing well, eating, etc and then the last day I noticed him swimming all over, agitated, and he did swipe the bottom a few times. He died that night. None of the fish show any physical trauma, spots, or anything abnormal.

I also have 2 nems who are ok (one was the only original moved from the Fallow tank after 60 days), 10 coral frags and some are doing ok (toadstool, torch, Xenia) and some are struggling (Duncan and a few hard corals.)

I acclimate fish via drip but I hadn't started these in a QT tank as everything was all new and I thought I didn't need to? Maybe that's my mistake but I'd love to have the Forum's help to determine why everything dies after a week. If I need to Fallow, will that solve the problem?

Numbers:
Salinity 36PPT (always trying to get to 35)
Temp: 79
PH: 8
Nitrite/Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate (cheap test kit) : between 0 and .25

PLEASE HELP.

A few things that jump out:

No quarantine- may have impact
Water quaility is the suspicion- What test kits are you using?
Salinity a tad high but not of threat.
Chromis- any rash or blemish on them prior to death ?
Were fish breathing normally or rapid breathing?
Were fish eating?
How long did you acclimate and did you check salinity of water with fish to see if it matched display tank?

If youre using API test kits, there is a likelihood your levels are higher as API notorious for false readings.

 

[RandyRovegno]

Thanks for your help! So I did not QT and thats now making me think it could be the issue? The LFS I go to is super reliable and he says that the overwhelming majority of his fish live and his customers dont seem to have this problem.

To answer:
Yes I'm using API. I put in like 80G of the LFS saltwater and then mixed the rest with RODI/bags of salt.

No signs of distress on any of them. Chromis and others looked and acted normal (the powder Brown started swimming faster the day he died.)

To Acclimate, yes the salinity is close (store was at 35 and I was a little high at 36.) I soak them for 20 mins. Then I put them in a bucket with store water, add a decent drip from the display for like 40 mins.

Whats odd is that I had the same problem with the previous tank. It sounds/looks like I'm doing things right. Ive actually switched LFS to see if it was the fish. Same results that everything dies in a week or two.

So with the new tank, there was no disease as everything was clean. Could the new chromis have introduced the same thing that happened before so every new guy was infected?

 

[Tamberav]

HELP.

I have had countless problems with my tanks regarding new fish dying in the first week over the years. So recently, I started over with a 120G including new saltwater/RODI, new live sand, sun bleached rocks (sat outside for a month), and new equipment.

After cycling, I started with a few Chromis (one died) and now I have three. I recently added a docile Toby Box Puffer who seems to do well but fish had died before/after him. I have slowly tried to add fish and I'm starting to have the same 5-10 day deaths each time. I lost 2 clowns after a week (same day), a Bicolor angel after 4 days, and a Powder Brown tang who was doing well for three weeks and just died suddenly. (All weeks apart, not adding all at once)

Bicolor and clowns appeared to eat (chase the mysis shrimp, and Larry's) but I couldn't be 100% certain they actually ate.

The Brown tang was doing well, eating, etc and then the last day I noticed him swimming all over, agitated, and he did swipe the bottom a few times. He died that night. None of the fish show any physical trauma, spots, or anything abnormal.

I also have 2 nems who are ok (one was the only original moved from the Fallow tank after 60 days), 10 coral frags and some are doing ok (toadstool, torch, Xenia) and some are struggling (Duncan and a few hard corals.)

I acclimate fish via drip but I hadn't started these in a QT tank as everything was all new and I thought I didn't need to? Maybe that's my mistake but I'd love to have the Forum's help to determine why everything dies after a week. If I need to Fallow, will that solve the problem?

Numbers:
Salinity 36PPT (always trying to get to 35)
Temp: 79
PH: 8
Nitrite/Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate (cheap test kit) : between 0 and .25

PLEASE HELP.

Tang swiping the bottom is a sign of parasites.

Everything needs to be QT from day one if that is the route you are going. The very first wet item or fish can bring in disease as much as any other.

The LFS can say whatever he wants but he is ordering new fish probably every week from a wholesaler which is mixed with dozen to 100's of other fish which transmits disease. So unless the LFS is doing a proper full QT on these fish... he can't really have any knowhow on if the fish he ordered have disease or not. When I lose a new fish, I don't even let the LFS know... they don't have a guarantee anyway and it's my problem once it is out the door.

Some of the fish you chose are disease magnets.

A new tank generally causes more disease problems then one several years old.

 

[RandyRovegno]

Tang swiping the bottom is a sign of parasites.

Everything needs to be QT from day one if that is the route you are going. The very first wet item or fish can bring in disease as much as any other.

The LFS can say whatever he wants but he is ordering new fish probably every week from a wholesaler which is mixed with dozen to 100's of other fish which transmits disease. So unless the LFS is doing a proper full QT on these fish... he can't really have any knowhow on if the fish he ordered have disease or not. When I lose a new fish, I don't even let the LFS know... they don't have a guarantee anyway and it's my problem once it is out the door.

Some of the fish you chose are disease magnets.

A new tank generally causes more disease problems then one several years old.

This is all very helpful. So the basic fish (chromis, tangs, etc) are higher risks for disease? Good to know. So question: My QT is actually a nano and it has sand. I haven't had anything in there for at least 3 months so can I keep the sand in? And if I put my current fish in there while I fallow, I should treat them with medicine in the QT tank correct?

 

[RandyRovegno]

I would suggest an ICP test of your source water after it has been rocessed by your RODI filter, and another ICP of the water in your tank.

There must be some contaminant.

Also look around and consider the environment. Any sprays, smoke etc around the tank?
Any other Pets that may be dipping into the tank?
Any children?

No outside contaminants like sprays, etc. And I should ICP test.

 

[Tamberav]

This is all very helpful. So the basic fish (chromis, tangs, etc) are higher risks for disease? Good to know. So question: My QT is actually a nano and it has sand. I haven't had anything in there for at least 3 months so can I keep the sand in? And if I put my current fish in there while I fallow, I should treat them with medicine in the QT tank correct?

Tangs have thin slime coats, Acanthurus tangs are especially suseptable.

Chromis are prone to uronema.

Yes, the current fish would need to be treated. Rock will absorb copper, sand less so.


Having any sort of Acanthurus tang will be difficult in an ich management system. There is an entire write up on it. I would only do something like zebra or bristletooth tangs in an ich management tank.

Ich and Acanthurus tangs - Years of experience and ich management

Alright folks I wanted to share some pretty shameful realities about my past and dealing with Acanthurus tangs. To anyone that doesn't know, common Acanthurus tangs include Powder Blue, Powder Brown, Goldrim/white cheek, Achilles, Sohal, Clown...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[gbroadbridge]

Tangs have thin slime coats, Acanthurus tangs are especially suseptable.

Chromis are prone to uronema.

Yes, the current fish would need to be treated. Rock will absorb copper, sand less so.


Having any sort of Acanthurus tang will be difficult in an ich management system. There is an entire write up on it. I would only do something like zebra or bristletooth tangs in an ich management tank.

Ich and Acanthurus tangs - Years of experience and ich management

Alright folks I wanted to share some pretty shameful realities about my past and dealing with Acanthurus tangs. To anyone that doesn't know, common Acanthurus tangs include Powder Blue, Powder Brown, Goldrim/white cheek, Achilles, Sohal, Clown...

www.reef2reef.com

The article quoted is quite old, and technology has changed significantly since it was written. It is an anecdotal report with no statistical or peer reviewed biological analysis.

if you like, it is like people who tell newbies to watch nitrites during a tank cycle (irrelevant), folks who say popping bubble algae is bad because the bubble contain spores (untrue), or that bottle bacteria is not possible (untrue).

Ich management has progressed in giant leaps since that article due to technological improvements, items that were either impossible or impractical, such as commercial UV at hobbyist level are game-changers.

I'm certain many advances are still to come in future.

 

[RandyRovegno]

HELP.

I have had countless problems with my tanks regarding new fish dying in the first week over the years. So recently, I started over with a 120G including new saltwater/RODI, new live sand, sun bleached rocks (sat outside for a month), and new equipment.

After cycling, I started with a few Chromis (one died) and now I have three. I recently added a docile Toby Box Puffer who seems to do well but fish had died before/after him. I have slowly tried to add fish and I'm starting to have the same 5-10 day deaths each time. I lost 2 clowns after a week (same day), a Bicolor angel after 4 days, and a Powder Brown tang who was doing well for three weeks and just died suddenly. (All weeks apart, not adding all at once)

Bicolor and clowns appeared to eat (chase the mysis shrimp, and Larry's) but I couldn't be 100% certain they actually ate.

The Brown tang was doing well, eating, etc and then the last day I noticed him swimming all over, agitated, and he did swipe the bottom a few times. He died that night. None of the fish show any physical trauma, spots, or anything abnormal.

I also have 2 nems who are ok (one was the only original moved from the Fallow tank after 60 days), 10 coral frags and some are doing ok (toadstool, torch, Xenia) and some are struggling (Duncan and a few hard corals.)

I acclimate fish via drip but I hadn't started these in a QT tank as everything was all new and I thought I didn't need to? Maybe that's my mistake but I'd love to have the Forum's help to determine why everything dies after a week. If I need to Fallow, will that solve the problem?

Numbers:
Salinity 36PPT (always trying to get to 35)
Temp: 79
PH: 8
Nitrite/Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate (cheap test kit) : between 0 and .25

PLEASE HELP.

Also to note: I have crabs and snails and a banded Coral shrimp who is fine.

 

[FiddlersReef]

...folks who say popping bubble algae is bad because the bubble contain spores (untrue), <snip>

Wait, seriously?! I've been totally stressing trying to remove those dang things without popping them. If I could just hack them out and suck them up while doing a water change, that would be wonderful.

 

[FiddlersReef]

HELP.

I have had countless problems with my tanks regarding new fish dying in the first week over the years. So recently, I started over with a 120G including new saltwater/RODI, new live sand, sun bleached rocks (sat outside for a month), and new equipment.

After cycling, I started with a few Chromis (one died) and now I have three. I recently added a docile Toby Box Puffer who seems to do well but fish had died before/after him. I have slowly tried to add fish and I'm starting to have the same 5-10 day deaths each time. I lost 2 clowns after a week (same day), a Bicolor angel after 4 days, and a Powder Brown tang who was doing well for three weeks and just died suddenly. (All weeks apart, not adding all at once)

<snip>

PLEASE HELP.

Sorry to say this sounds exactly like what I went through. Something started it, and then everything kept dying. I was blaming everything except disease. Mean fish, bad stock, hidden crab, red moon, you name it. I'd never QT'd before. The only solution was to set up a QT tank, catch and treat everyone per the directions in the QT forum, and let the tank sit fallow (fishless) for 2.5 months. Worked like a charm.

Best of luck.

 

[threebuoys]

The article quoted is quite old, and technology has changed significantly since it was written. It is an anecdotal report with no statistical or peer reviewed biological analysis.

if you like, it is like people who tell newbies to watch nitrites during a tank cycle (irrelevant), folks who say popping bubble algae is bad because the bubble contain spores (untrue), or that bottle bacteria is not possible (untrue).

Ich management has progressed in giant leaps since that article due to technological improvements, items that were either impossible or impractical, such as commercial UV at hobbyist level are game-changers.

I'm certain many advances are still to come in future.

Would you mind sharing what you find to be misleading in the article?

The article is only 7 years old and is more a confession of one hobbyist personal experience and testimony of his advocacy of quarantine which remains the most frequently used method to control cryptocaryon.

Copper remains the most frequently prescribed medication as it was 50 years ago. The biggest improvements since then have been safer copper formulations, a better understand of the parasite life cycle and the development fo effective quarantine protocols. Sure, a number of other methods are preferred by some hobbyists, but that does not discount the value of quarantine.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Would you mind sharing what you find to be misleading in the article?

The article is only 7 years old and is more a confession of one hobbyist personal experience and testimony of his advocacy of quarantine which remains the most frequently used method to control cryptocaryon.

Copper remains the most frequently prescribed medication as it was 50 years ago. The biggest improvements since then have been safer copper formulations, a better understand of the parasite life cycle and the development fo effective quarantine protocols. Sure, a number of other methods are preferred by some hobbyists, but that does not discount the value of quarantine.

There's nothing misleading. It's just old, out of date and not particularly relevant given the enormous jumps forward in technology and knowledge since it was written.

The premise that Ich cannot be adequately controlled by technical means is just wrong.

Quarantine is of course the gold standard, but really is very poorly controlled by hobbiests who are not the most patient of people. Breaches of quarantine are almost guaranteed by all but the most fastideous who quarantine everything that goes into the tank.

I worked in commercial operations with big UV and ozone systems, and Ich is 99.9% controlled by those methods which is a similar success rate to quarantine.

 

[threebuoys]

There's nothing misleading. It's just old, out of date and not particularly relevant given the enormous jumps forward in technology and knowledge since it was written.

The premise that Ich cannot be adequately controlled by technical means is just wrong.

Quarantine is of course the gold standard, but really is very poorly controlled by hobbiests who are not the most patient of people. Breaches of quarantine are almost guaranteed by all but the most fastideous who quarantine everything that goes into the tank.

I worked in commercial operations with big UV and ozone systems, and Ich is 99.9% controlled by those methods which is a similar success rate to quarantine.

Thanks for responding to my question.

Many threads on the forum discuss the pros and cons of UV. I personally use full time UV and advocate its use to others. While I think it provides huge benefits, I think it is unfortunately not foolproof.

This link discusses some of the most recent information concerning the use of UV in marine aquariums.

Finally, Cryptocaryon UV dosage data

Screenshots because I don't want to deal with removing watermarks. Values are in the range previously guesstimated. One interesting tidbit though: Another important finding was that the theronts exposed to UV doses lower than the minimum lethal dose also lost their ability to infect fish...

www.reef2reef.com

We are always looking for better ways to solve the problems hobbyists are likely to encounter.

For the benefit of the OP, please provide information you believe he should consider as he tries to find an answer to his question.

I encourage the OP to further research any solution he finds interesting by using the search feature on R2R. I can't imagine you won't find a discussion or two on any topic and any solution that is brought to your attention. As always, the final decision on what to do is up to the OP.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Thanks for responding to my question.

Thanks for the link. The aquaculture article link is interesting and I'll forward to the team I work with.