Fish died randomly and all new fish die within an hour

[Uncle99]

The way you describe how the fish acted before death reminds me of ammonia poisoning.
Could ammonia have spiked, even short term?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for all the replies. I know it’s no CO issue. My dogs sleep in the garage as well and they haven’t died. As for brook I really don’t think so. They looked perfectly healthy. No mucus production at all. Nice healthy color up to the end. I have a camera on the tank. They went to bed with lights out swimming around just fine and begging for food when I approached. Then 9 hours later when I woke up and checked on them. They were moving all slow and had no appetite.
I agree it seems to be low o2 but how so quick after 35 days of being totally fine. And then the new ones seemed to be gasping for air within minutes. I’m trying to think of every possible scenario.

My thought is the losses of the first two fish and second may not be related, but there is some clue that is missing. The first losses sound like Amyloodinium/velvet, but you can rule that out if you are certain they weren’t breathing rapidly before they died. The second losses were too quick to be a disease, I think there was an acclimation issue, very little else will kill fish in two hours. Likewise, almost without exception , toxins and water quality issues bad enough to kill fish in two hours would also kill the invertebrates.
Jay

 

[Lazydaze73]

The way you describe how the fish acted before death reminds me of ammonia poisoning.
Could ammonia have spiked, even short term?

I highly doubt it. It had been setup for two months and I used a couple bottles of bacteria to seed it. I tested as well when the first one started acting stupid and it showed no ammonia.

 

[Lazydaze73]

My thought is the losses of the first two fish and second may not be related, but there is some clue that is missing. The first losses sound like Amyloodinium/velvet, but you can rule that out if you are certain they weren’t breathing rapidly before they died. The second losses were too quick to be a disease, I think there was an acclimation issue, very little else will kill fish in two hours. Likewise, almost without exception , toxins and water quality issues bad enough to kill fish in two hours would also kill the invertebrates.
Jay

they just seemed to healthy for it to be velvet. They were swimming fine and hungry when the lights went out and when I checked on them approx 9 hours later in the morning they were acting noticeably different. Slow and didn’t want to eat. Smaller one looked like he was hyperventilating. Then the next day the other one did the same thing.

as for the second fish. I floated the bag for 30 mins to bring the temp even. The salt from the Lfs was at 1.025 and mine is at 1.026 so I just dropped them in. I didn’t think the .001 would be an issue. It never has in the past for me. Just so confusing.

 

[Suohhen]

And ammonia is also highly toxic to invertebrates. And yeah like I originally said it could just be random bad luck, fish death of newly added fish is a common issue so it isn't all that surprising to lose the new fish. But it is still very possible that disease got the first two and velvet can kill in the time line you saw and rapid breathing is the most common sign. You can read up on Velvet here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/
Also I would get a CO detector. Who knows if it had anything to do with the fish deaths but now that it is in your mind it is best to just put those worries to ease especially since they are so cheap.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

they just seemed to healthy for it to be velvet. They were swimming fine and hungry when the lights went out and when I checked on them approx 9 hours later in the morning they were acting noticeably different. Slow and didn’t want to eat. Smaller one looked like he was hyperventilating. Then the next day the other one did the same thing.

as for the second fish. I floated the bag for 30 mins to bring the temp even. The salt from the Lfs was at 1.025 and mine is at 1.026 so I just dropped them in. I didn’t think the .001 would be an issue. It never has in the past for me. Just so confusing.

The timing and rapid breathing on the first fish does match velvet, it is a swift killer.
Since you measured the salinity of the second fish bag water yourself, I think you can rule out isomeric issues, so I’m at a loss there, other than as I said, fish diseases cannot kill that fast, not even velvet.
Jay

 

[Lazydaze73]

And ammonia is also highly toxic to invertebrates. And yeah like I originally said it could just be random bad luck, fish death of newly added fish is a common issue so it isn't all that surprising to lose the new fish. But it is still very possible that disease got the first two and velvet can kill in the time line you saw and rapid breathing is the most common sign. You can read up on Velvet here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/
Also I would get a CO detector. Who knows if it had anything to do with the fish deaths but now that it is in your mind it is best to just put those worries to ease especially since they are so cheap.

yeah I’ll be picking one up ASAP. Thanks for all the responses guys.

 

[jmantbbq]

I wonder if stirring the sand released something from the decomposing diatom's? I was always told to leave them be.

 

[Lazydaze73]

I wonder if stirring the sand released something from the decomposing diatom's? I was always told to leave them be.

this was my first thought was by stirring the sand bed I released some toxic gas. But it’s only 1” deep and not very old and I’ve been trying to stir it up once a week so I wouldn’t think it was hydrogen sulphide.
Thought maybe it slowly killed the first two clowns and then it was still in the water when I got the second set and was just too much for them to overcome with the shock of moving tanks as well.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

this was my first thought was by stirring the sand bed I released some toxic gas. But it’s only 1” deep and not very old and I’ve been trying to stir it up once a week so I wouldn’t think it was hydrogen sulphide.
Thought maybe it slowly killed the first two clowns and then it was still in the water when I got the second set and was just too much for them to overcome with the shock of moving tanks as well.

Hydrogen sulfide is not the killer people think it is, it rapidly changes to hydrogen sulfate in the presence of oxygen. You also would have smelled it, and saw bubbles being released from the sand. That said, you could have stirred up bacteria that then became free floating and that might cause issues, but not for the fish that died in two hours, again, that is too fast for any disease.

Jay

 

[Suohhen]

I don't know why I didn't mention this before but even if you got the fish from two different sources the chances are still high that they got the fish from a shared supplier. Usually for most fish there are only a couple options for the lfs, order a drop shipment from SDC or the like or go to the local distributor who also gets their fish from Los Angeles. Clownfish can be a little different however depending on the supplier I tend to see a lot of clowns from the same local breeder.

 

[Dolphins18]

Unlikely Hydrogen sulfide and nearly 100% not fault of the anemones. BTA's can go thru hell, they can die, and still it is unlikely that they would kill fish that fast.

The only thing I can think of that is naturally capable of killing fish that fast is toxin from medusa worms.
Look into it, it essentially prevents them from being able to breathe.
Did you start with Live Rock or dry?
Toxin from medusa worms can be directly linked to fish deaths yet inverts surviving, as their toxin has no effect on shrimp/crabs corals etc.

Even the fastest acting marine diseases that I am aware of don't turn fish from healthy to dead in a couple hours.
They aren't commonly discussed anymore, but I found a few in one of my tanks last year.

Warning: Why you shouldnt buy a Medusa Worm - Reef Central Online Community

Warning: Why you shouldnt buy a Medusa Worm New to the Hobby

www.reefcentral.com

Heres a old article about them.
They can be very small.

There are certain species of marine cucumber that can also release a similar toxin, though they are usually a little easier to spot in the tank.

 

[Sharkbait19]

I also wouldn’t rule out internal parasites. I’ve dealt with IP’s in one of my tanks, and there are some nasty and unnoticeable ones that slowly harm the fish until they all suddenly die.

 

[Lazydaze73]

Unlikely Hydrogen sulfide and nearly 100% not fault of the anemones. BTA's can go thru hell, they can die, and still it is unlikely that they would kill fish that fast.

The only thing I can think of that is naturally capable of killing fish that fast is toxin from medusa worms.
Look into it, it essentially prevents them from being able to breathe.
Did you start with Live Rock or dry?
Toxin from medusa worms can be directly linked to fish deaths yet inverts surviving, as their toxin has no effect on shrimp/crabs corals etc.

Even the fastest acting marine diseases that I am aware of don't turn fish from healthy to dead in a couple hours.
They aren't commonly discussed anymore, but I found a few in one of my tanks last year.

Warning: Why you shouldnt buy a Medusa Worm - Reef Central Online Community

Warning: Why you shouldnt buy a Medusa Worm New to the Hobby

www.reefcentral.com

Heres a old article about them.
They can be very small.

There are certain species of marine cucumber that can also release a similar toxin, though they are usually a little easier to spot in the tank.

I started with dry rock I had left from an old tank. It was bleached and sat in the sun for a month at least. I used Fiji pink for the sand.

 

[Dolphins18]

I started with dry rock I had left from an old tank. It was bleached and sat in the sun for a month at least. I used Fiji pink for the sand.

Then this is unlikely but certainly still possible if you've gotten frags on rocks.
You haven't seen any worms or any sea slugs have you?
Medusa worms are very difficult to see as they stay hidden for the most part, look out for any fluorescent looking worms, they often have feeder tentacles that extend out to catch food. The extended feeder tentacles look somewhat similar to aiptasia but noticeably different.
Here is one I had, This one is rather large

 

[CRath]

Were their fins clamped to their sides and were they swimming into the flow of your powerheads? I had a pair of clowns die and they were breathing pretty darn hard a few hours before dying. They stopped eating about 2 days before dying. All of the posts I found on it made me suspect that mine died from velvet. If so, they recommended treating with cupramine or another copper medication for velvet and external parasites. I left the tank fallow for 6 weeks before adding any new fish to my tank when it happened.

 

[Lazydaze73]

Then this is unlikely but certainly still possible if you've gotten frags on rocks.
You haven't seen any worms or any sea slugs have you?
Medusa worms are very difficult to see as they stay hidden for the most part, look out for any fluorescent looking worms, they often have feeder tentacles that extend out to catch food. The extended feeder tentacles look somewhat similar to aiptasia but noticeably different.
Here is one I had, This one is rather large

I haven’t seen any but I did get a couple frags from a local reefer that I suppose could have brought something in. I’ll keep an eye out though. Thanks for the response.

 

[Lazydaze73]

Were their fins clamped to their sides and were they swimming into the flow of your powerheads? I had a pair of clowns die and they were breathing pretty darn hard a few hours before dying. They stopped eating about 2 days before dying. All of the posts I found on it made me suspect that mine died from velvet. If so, they recommended treating with cupramine or another copper medication for velvet and external parasites. I left the tank fallow for 6 weeks before adding any new fish to my tank when it happened.

I’m highly doubting it was velvet. I’ve seen that before first hand as well as ich and flukes and brook. They just didn’t appear to be sick at all to me. I feel like it was another factor.

 

[Dolphins18]

I’m highly doubting it was velvet. I’ve seen that before first hand as well as ich and flukes and brook. They just didn’t appear to be sick at all to me. I feel like it was another factor.

For a fish to go from healthy to dead in 2 hours it must be something else. Even velvet doesn't kill that fast.
If you absolutely cannot get to the bottom of it, an ICP test may be worth sending in, in case there's something in the water that should not be there, though i'd tend to think that would likely affect corals and inverts as well. When you feed the tank look for any small feeder tentacles catching what moves in the water. Maybe make sure no critters got into the powerhead.
It would be interesting to see what happens if you acclimated a few FW mollies to saltwater and see if they show the signs, better yet find already acclimated mollies, only about half usually make the transition, but it's better than trying over and over again with marine fish.
I am curious what conclusion you come to and will follow this thread.

 

[Lazydaze73]

For a fish to go from healthy to dead in 2 hours it must be something else. Even velvet doesn't kill that fast.
If you absolutely cannot get to the bottom of it, an ICP test may be worth sending in, in case there's something in the water that should not be there, though i'd tend to think that would likely affect corals and inverts as well. When you feed the tank look for any small feeder tentacles catching what moves in the water. Maybe make sure no critters got into the powerhead.
It would be interesting to see what happens if you acclimated a few FW mollies to saltwater and see if they show the signs, better yet find already acclimated mollies, only about half usually make the transition, but it's better than trying over and over again with marine fish.
I am curious what conclusion you come to and will follow this thread.

Yeah that might be a good idea. I’ve got some poly filter and carbon on the way. Gonna run the poly first and see if it changes color at all.