Fish don't make it past QT.

[fluked]

So, for some background, on and off I'vehad tropical tanks for around 13 years now, including my current betta tank, I've never had issues introducing new fish. However moving on to saltwater, my first set of clown fish, one had worms, but i treated him with prazi, all good now, the other had brook and died within 5 days, (great start i know), i also have a royale dottyback who made it through qt with no issues. since then ive had a banggai cardinal, yellow goby, and now a melanarus wrasse all die in qt.Between their deaths, id clean out the tank, refill with water from the dt, throw out the sponges in the filter to be safe, replacing them with some sitting in my sump for the main tank, in the qt tank, (its only 5 gal) im testing 1/2 time daily for ammonia/nitrite, and doing roughly 65% water change every 2 days, or every 1 if i detect any ammonia. Are salt water fish just way more likely to pass away? Or is there something im missing in the process?
Any tips would be amazing
Thanks.

 

[Pkunk35]

So I’m not gonna be much help but would also like to hear some answers from some pros, one question I have is where are you sourcing your fish?

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I think your Quarantine tank is too small. Mistakes in dosing can easily be made. Also your tank volume is less than the size of the “Tank Sales Size.”** Mine has gallon markings, and quart markings as I near the top, this includes the filter(s) volume. Do you have pieces of PVC Pipe and fittings for the fish to hide in? At least one should be floated off some non friable styrofoam. Minimum lighting should be used, also I painted the back and half the sides with black paint. The sides are painted in a trapezoid shape so I can still see somewhat in the sides. I think you are stressing the fish with the frequent water changes, pH, salinity, calcium abd temperatures, could be swinging around. I do water changes from the main tank, but use airline tubing to slowly drain the old water, while replacing it.

** One of the popular tank manufacturers, the only way you can come up to the label gallons, is to measure the outside of the Plastic braces, to the 100th decimal, multiply them and divided by 230, not the actual 231, cubic inches in a gallon.

 

[fluked]

So I’m not gonna be much help but would also like to hear some answers from some pros, one question I have is where are you sourcing your fish?

Sourcing from a number of different lfs, however being in Sydney, nearly all LFS get their fish from the same distributors anyways.

 

[fluked]

I think your Quarantine tank is too small. Mistakes in dosing can easily be made. Also your tank volume is less than the size of the “Tank Sales Size.”** Mine has gallon markings, and quart markings as I near the top, this includes the filter(s) volume. Do you have pieces of PVC Pipe and fittings for the fish to hide in? At least one should be floated off some non friable styrofoam. Minimum lighting should be used, also I painted the back and half the sides with black paint. The sides are painted in a trapezoid shape so I can still see somewhat in the sides. I think you are stressing the fish with the frequent water changes, pH, salinity, calcium abd temperatures, could be swinging around. I do water changes from the main tank, but use airline tubing to slowly drain the old water, while replacing it.

** One of the popular tank manufacturers, the only way you can come up to the label gallons, is to measure the outside of the Plastic braces, to the 100th decimal, multiply them and divided by 230, not the actual 231, cubic inches in a gallon.

I have a bucket outside with dry rock soaking for months, i use a fresh bit of that each time for the new fish. Theres no light on the tank itself, just ambient room lighting, the back panel has a covering, and i put buckets either side of it, so the fish are more relaxed. I should maybe specify, im not doing a straight 65% out then new water in,
Im doing 2 cups out, 1 cup of old tank water in (my dt water is pretty clean, so its fine to reuse) i do that over roughly 2 hours while i watch tv, and the fish never seem stressed out during that process. I agree the tank is small, but to be fair, I'm always getting young fish, so i didnt think that would be it, but maybe you're right

 

[SDK]

How fast are the fish dying in QT and did they have any symptoms?

My first move would be to stop using water and filters from your main tank. There could be something in there that the clownfish has been able to live with. Once fish get established, they can fight off things that will kill new fish, and it’s not unheard of for a display tank to be harboring something.

You need to set up the QT tank with new water and filters that have not been in your main tank, and preferably in a different room. The qt tank should also have its own nets, buckets, etc. You need to eliminate contamination going in both directions, not just one.

 

[dwest]

My success rate has gone up a lot after using this method:

My Current QT Process

UPDATE, 10/9/22: For those looking for quarantine information, our current process is kept updated on the first page of this thread (post any questions at the end of the thread). https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/ Thanks, Jay Hemdal I am frequently...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[fluked]

How fast are the fish dying in QT and did they have any symptoms?

My first move would be to stop using water and filters from your main tank. There could be something in there that the clownfish has been able to live with. Once fish get established, they can fight off things that will kill new fish, and it’s not unheard of for a display tank to be harboring something.

You need to set up the QT tank with new water and filters that have not been in your main tank, and preferably in a different room. The qt tank should also have its own nets, buckets, etc. You need to eliminate contamination going in both directions, not just one.

Mixed bag, the first clown died after 5 days, the banggai 1.5 weeks, the goby 2 days, the wrasse 1 night. The clown showed obviously symptoms of brook, the only other fish that had symptoms was the bangaii which wasn't eating (if thats a symptom). Good point on my dt causing issues, i hadn't thought of that, i assumed it was okay as everything was qt'd before going in there, but you have a point. The tanks are in the same room (1 bedroom apartment so thats unavoidable), however they are blocked off from oe

How fast are the fish dying in QT and did they have any symptoms?

My first move would be to stop using water and filters from your main tank. There could be something in there that the clownfish has been able to live with. Once fish get established, they can fight off things that will kill new fish, and it’s not unheard of for a display tank to be harboring something.

You need to set up the QT tank with new water and filters that have not been in your main tank, and preferably in a different room. The qt tank should also have its own nets, buckets, etc. You need to eliminate contamination going in both directions, not just one.

Mixed bag, the first clown died after 5 days, the banggai 1.5 weeks, the goby 2 days, the wrasse 1 night. The clown showed obviously symptoms of brook, the only other fish that had symptoms was the bangaii which wasn't eating (if thats a symptom). Good point on my dt causing issues, i hadn't thought of that, i assumed it was okay as everything was qt'd before going in there, but you have a point. The tanks are in the same room (1 bedroom apartment so thats unavoidable), however they are blocked off from each other if you're talking line of sight. Thanks for the tips though

 

[Albertan22]

I agree that the QT size is likely to be a contributing factor to the mortality you are seeing. While a small tank is certainly doable, in saltwater size is directly proportional to the level of difficulty, and smaller = harder. A tank that small wouldn't allow any margin of error for measuring out medication doses, build up of ammonia, and maintenance of salinity. It is also likely to stress the fish depending on the species. Do you have an auto topoff on the QT? If not are you topping it off multiple times per day? It can be hard to maintain stable salinity in a tank that small.

What are you doing for initial treatment? Are you moving straight into copper and metro, hypo, or just observing? If just observing, are you up to speed on what you are watching for? As someone who did freshwater then transitioned into salt, I remember fish disease being hardly an issue with fresh, but with salt it's a major concern. Back when I didn't QT at all I think I had a 50% survival rate, now that I QT that survival rate is probably in the high 90%s.

You need to set up the QT tank with new water and filters that have not been in your main tank, and preferably in a different room. The qt tank should also have its own nets, buckets, etc. You need to eliminate contamination going in both directions, not just one.

I disagree with the statement above. Everyone I know that QT's fish use sponge filters they've seeded in their sumps to establish the biofilter in their QT tanks. I have never had any issue with this and never heard of anyone having an issue with this UNLESS they have had some kind of major outbreak in their DT like an ich or velvet outbreak and that's the reason they are setting up a QT. If you have always QT'd your fish then your DT should be a healthy system and it is a non issue seeding your filter media there.

 

[anthonygf]

I hate to say this but I have never quarantined my fish and my survival rate over 90%. My reef and fish have been going strong for around 4 years, the only fatality was a PBT that died with velvet I think. Pulled him out to treat him but died in Q over 3 years ago, all other fish are fine. I now have a YT for 3 years after the PBT died, 2 clowns 4 years now, Flame Hawk, Filefish and 2 stripped Damsel over 3 years now and none have contracted any thing from PBT. I think the stress of quar may play a part, I just acclimate and introduce them into the DT. I have been keeping fresh water fish for a little over 40 years and never quar unless one gets sick, which rarely happened.

 

[Albertan22]

I hate to say this but I have never quarantined my fish and my survival rate over 90%. My reef and fish have been going strong for around 4 years, the only fatality was a PBT that died with velvet I think. Pulled him out to treat him but died in Q over 3 years ago, all other fish are fine. I now have a YT for 3 years after the PBT died, 2 clowns 4 years now, Flame Hawk, Filefish and 2 stripped Damsel over 3 years now and none have contracted any thing from PBT. I think the stress of quar may play a part, I just acclimate and introduce them into the DT. I have been keeping fresh water fish for a little over 40 years and never quar unless one gets sick, which rarely happened.

If you look at it from a purely financial risk perspective your approach may make sense for a small tank like that but gets less and less attractive as you increase tank size and fish load. (Disclaimer: I don’t know the OT’s situation in this regard). If you introduced your last fish and it brought in something that wiped out the other 6 you aren’t out that much. If I add something carrying velvet to my tank and it wipes out my other 17 fish I’m down $2000-$3000 in fish. For me the risk of losing the $50-$200 fish in QT is worth it compared to the maybe lower risk of losing everything in my DT.

 

[anthonygf]

If you look at it from a purely financial risk perspective your approach may make sense for a small tank like that but gets less and less attractive as you increase tank size and fish load. (Disclaimer: I don’t know the OT’s situation in this regard). If you introduced your last fish and it brought in something that wiped out the other 6 you aren’t out that much. If I add something carrying velvet to my tank and it wipes out my other 17 fish I’m down $2000-$3000 in fish. For me the risk of losing the $50-$200 fish in QT is worth it compared to the maybe lower risk of losing everything in my DT.

That is so true, I guess with expensive fish the risk is too great.

 

[SDK]

I disagree with the statement above. Everyone I know that QT's fish use sponge filters they've seeded in their sumps to establish the biofilter in their QT tanks. I have never had any issue with this and never heard of anyone having an issue with this UNLESS they have had some kind of major outbreak in their DT like an ich or velvet outbreak and that's the reason they are setting up a QT. If you have always QT'd your fish then your DT should be a healthy system and it is a non issue seeding your filter media there.

His fish are all dying quickly in a QT that has water and equipment being shared with his display. If you don’t eliminate contamination from the DT as a possibility, then you are trying to fix a problem with extra variables involved that are easily eliminated.

It is also absolutely possible to have a disease get into a DT that is only stocked with quarantined fish. I have seen it myself and there are plenty of accounts here. Frags, inverts, live rock and chaeto can all bring fish parasites or diseases in.

You having not personally seen it means you have been lucky, not that it’s impossible.

 

[anthonygf]

If you look at it from a purely financial risk perspective your approach may make sense for a small tank like that but gets less and less attractive as you increase tank size and fish load. (Disclaimer: I don’t know the OT’s situation in this regard). If you introduced your last fish and it brought in something that wiped out the other 6 you aren’t out that much. If I add something carrying velvet to my tank and it wipes out my other 17 fish I’m down $2000-$3000 in fish. For me the risk of losing the $50-$200 fish in QT is worth it compared to the maybe lower risk of losing everything in my DT.

I would not add a fish that is obviously sick.

 

[SDK]

Mixed bag, the first clown died after 5 days, the banggai 1.5 weeks, the goby 2 days, the wrasse 1 night. The clown showed obviously symptoms of brook, the only other fish that had symptoms was the bangaii which wasn't eating (if thats a symptom). Good point on my dt causing issues, i hadn't thought of that, i assumed it was okay as everything was qt'd before going in there, but you have a point. The tanks are in the same room (1 bedroom apartment so thats unavoidable), however they are blocked off from oe

Mixed bag, the first clown died after 5 days, the banggai 1.5 weeks, the goby 2 days, the wrasse 1 night. The clown showed obviously symptoms of brook, the only other fish that had symptoms was the bangaii which wasn't eating (if thats a symptom). Good point on my dt causing issues, i hadn't thought of that, i assumed it was okay as everything was qt'd before going in there, but you have a point. The tanks are in the same room (1 bedroom apartment so thats unavoidable), however they are blocked off from each other if you're talking line of sight. Thanks for the tips though

Those are all fairly quick deaths. I would sterilize the QT (upgrade to a 10g if you can) and try again. If that works, then you have a decision to make, as it could mean there is something in the DT.

You could add one quarantined fish to the DT and see what happens. If it gets sick or dies, I would consider putting the clown and Dottyback into the QT for observation and prophylactic medication and letting the tank sit fallow. Then move them back into the DT again and start fresh with a sterilized QT.

 

[Albertan22]

His fish are all dying quickly in a QT that has water and equipment being shared with his display. If you don’t eliminate contamination from the DT as a possibility, then you are trying to fix a problem with extra variables involved that are easily eliminated.

It is also absolutely possible to have a disease get into a DT that is only stocked with quarantined fish. I have seen it myself and there are plenty of accounts here. Frags, inverts, live rock and chaeto can all bring fish parasites or diseases in.

You having not personally seen it means you have been lucky, not that it’s impossible.

I never said it was impossible that something isn’t coming from the DT, but it is improbable. I would be looking at other things before assuming the media from the DT is the cause. Without seeding from the DT you are left having to cycle a QT, which most people aren’t generally willing to do.

 

[SDK]

I never said it was impossible that something isn’t coming from the DT, but it is improbable. I would be looking at other things before assuming the media from the DT is the cause. Without seeding from the DT you are left having to cycle a QT, which most people aren’t generally willing to do.

Most people cycle their QT tanks with bottle bacteria and keep a two way “quarantine” protocol between their DT and QT. Mixing water and filters between the two is definitely “not“ what most people do. I’m not sure where you are coming up with that, but it is not correct information.

Most people also don’t have a rash of relatively common and hardy fish species dying quickly in QT with water and filters seeded from a display tank. Either way it is a variable/protocol error that should taken out of the equation before trying again and losing more fish.

 

[CindyKz]

OP are you treating the fish with anything or just observing?

 

[Jon Fishman]

I’d quit quarantining.

 

[fluked]

I agree that the QT size is likely to be a contributing factor to the mortality you are seeing. While a small tank is certainly doable, in saltwater size is directly proportional to the level of difficulty, and smaller = harder. A tank that small wouldn't allow any margin of error for measuring out medication doses, build up of ammonia, and maintenance of salinity. It is also likely to stress the fish depending on the species. Do you have an auto topoff on the QT? If not are you topping it off multiple times per day? It can be hard to maintain stable salinity in a tank that small.

What are you doing for initial treatment? Are you moving straight into copper and metro, hypo, or just observing? If just observing, are you up to speed on what you are watching for? As someone who did freshwater then transitioned into salt, I remember fish disease being hardly an issue with fresh, but with salt it's a major concern. Back when I didn't QT at all I think I had a 50% survival rate, now that I QT that survival rate is probably in the high 90%s.



I disagree with the statement above. Everyone I know that QT's fish use sponge filters they've seeded in their sumps to establish the biofilter in their QT tanks. I have never had any issue with this and never heard of anyone having an issue with this UNLESS they have had some kind of major outbreak in their DT like an ich or velvet outbreak and that's the reason they are setting up a QT. If you have always QT'd your fish then your DT should be a healthy system and it is a non issue seeding your filter media there.

Im working from home atm, so i do a water top off usually 4x daily, initially I'm not doing meds so they settle, after they eat properly i do prazi then methyl blue/green. Then i do a fw dip before they go into the dt, make sure nothing comes off (so far only 3 have made it to the dt), nothing thats reached the dt has had any issues.

Im looking gor any changes, fish going pale, white spots, scratching/breathing weird etc, I'm not perfect at this, but have looked into most of the main sw diseases.