Fish dying in QT, no symptoms

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I've had a mysterious loss of fish in QT over the past few days. It's a 30g long tank, seeded with sponge filter that was running in my DT sump for about a month. QT was set up before fish arrived. About 3 weeks ago, I placed two flasher wrasses, a diamond goby, a possum wrasse, a tail spot blenny, a 1.5" two spot bristletooth tang, and a small small potters angel in this QT. That's a lot of fish for a 30g, but they are all small, and I planned to keep a close eye on them for four weeks and then move them to a 220g DT.

The QT had the sponge filter from the DT, various size pieces of pvc, a power head, and a HOB filter running. The fish all acclimated well enough, and were eating live black worms, LRS, and frozen mysis. After a week and a half, all seemed well.

Then, at about 12 days of QT, the potters started acting strangely, swimming along the surface of the water. There were no apparent signs of any parasites or infection. It did seem like it was losing color. I dipped it for flukes, and nothing showed up. There were no signs of injury. It was still eating. It was not swimming into the power head, just swimming along the top of the tank. None of the other fish seemed to have anything wrong with them.

On day 14, I lost the potters. It looked fine, just found it dead in the morning. The other fish were still behaving fine. Parameters were all "normal" for my usual setup. I did a 50% water change, and waited.

On day 16, one of the flasher wrasses was dead. No warning, just dead. Again, no signs of anything abnormal. I moved all of the fish to a new QT, seeded again from a sponge filter. Since I didn't see any sign of parasites or disease, I chose not to start ramping with copper. On day 18, the remaining flasher showed signs of significant fin rot on it's tail - so I started kanaplex, furan-2, and metroplex. That fish died the next day.

Here we are on day 20, and the possum wrasse was found dead this morning. Seemed fine yesterday, was eating. No signs of anything external. Again, parameters all check out as acceptable.

I am left with the diamond goby, the tail spot blenny, and the tang. I've been wondering if the tang was just picking the other fish off, but I haven't observed that behavior, and the other fish didn't show any signs of attack, other than the flasher wrasse that had a tattered tail. The goby and the blenny seem fine, as does the tang. All three are eating well. I've continued with the antibiotics, but I am not sure there is an infection in the tank.

Thoughts? Perhaps I should have isolated the tang, but since I was watching carefully and I did not observe any aggressive behavior, I thought it was ok. The fish all seemed to be getting along in the relatively small space after two weeks, but then started dying off.

Is there a usual suspect for what seems like a silent killer? Can it be that the tang is picking them off? What's my best course of action at this point?
 
Sorry for your losses!

7 is a lot for a 30g so I wonder if maybe you ended up with ammonia or nitrite spikes, potters trying to breathe on the surface would be consistent with the symptoms of poisoning. Absolutely no spots or wounds, discoloration or anything out of whack?

Aggression is possible but you’d probably be able to spot it. Also most parasites leave some trace.
 
I knew that with a fresh QT and this number of fish, I needed to keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I have tested daily, and have not seen measurable levels of any of those. I have found that seeding a QT with a sponge filter that has been running in the sump for a while provides a healthy biofilter for a small QT from the start.

Nothing out of whack, except the surface swimming from the potters, and the tattered tail on the flasher. The first flasher to die just turned up dead one morning. The second one looked like it could either have been getting bit, or it was bacterial. With the possum, I had to keep checking it to make sure it wasn't just playing dead, because it looked fine. It was dead.

If it was velvet, I would think I would see signs of it. It is isn't ich. Uronema would produce red spots, right? What else would take two weeks to start killing fish, and then move through the population fairly quickly? If it were the tang, could it kill off this many fish in a short period of time? And wouldn't I see behavioral issues?

I am stumped, and hoping for help ... if even only to learn from whatever mistakes I may have made or even be making now.
 
I knew that with a fresh QT and this number of fish, I needed to keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I have tested daily, and have not seen measurable levels of any of those. I have found that seeding a QT with a sponge filter that has been running in the sump for a while provides a healthy biofilter for a small QT from the start.

Nothing out of whack, except the surface swimming from the potters, and the tattered tail on the flasher. The first flasher to die just turned up dead one morning. The second one looked like it could either have been getting bit, or it was bacterial. With the possum, I had to keep checking it to make sure it wasn't just playing dead, because it looked fine. It was dead.

If it was velvet, I would think I would see signs of it. It is isn't ich. Uronema would produce red spots, right? What else would take two weeks to start killing fish, and then move through the population fairly quickly? If it were the tang, could it kill off this many fish in a short period of time? And wouldn't I see behavioral issues?

I am stumped, and hoping for help ... if even only to learn from whatever mistakes I may have made or even be making now.[/QUOTE



I guess another possibility would be flukes which would also cause the fish to try breathing at the surface. There would usually be some scratching at least or discoloration, cloudy eyes, although sometimes may be subtle. Have you tried a FW dip?

Velvet IMO would kill all fish and I suspect a bit faster and unlikely that you wouldn’t see any spots as that’d be a major outbreak.

Uronema doesn’t have to leave red spots, it can be internal but there’s usually some discoloration or whitening visible outside, although can be very subtle.

Bullying is a possibility but for a fish to be killed without any scuffs would be unusual...
 
I did dip the potters after it started surface skimming, no flukes.

How long does it take uronema to start killing apparently healthy fish? The part I am having a hard time reconciling is that everything seemed fine together for about 12 days, and then in less than a week I lost 4 fish which otherwise appeared to be healthy. And this is after I moved them to a different QT.

The only other thing wet that I put in there is the food. I did start feeding live blackworms from a new shipment around the time that things started going south, could it be tied to that?
 
One other thought - in addition to the live blackworms, I have been feeding a mix of thawed LRS and mysis. Now, for the past two weeks or so, I have been holding this mixture in the fridge because I thawed too much - rather than feeding freshly thawed food, this tank has been getting food that was thawed and refrigerated. Could I be killing them with what I am feeding them?
 
I did dip the potters after it started surface skimming, no flukes.

How long does it take uronema to start killing apparently healthy fish? The part I am having a hard time reconciling is that everything seemed fine together for about 12 days, and then in less than a week I lost 4 fish which otherwise appeared to be healthy. And this is after I moved them to a different QT.

The only other thing wet that I put in there is the food. I did start feeding live blackworms from a new shipment around the time that things started going south, could it be tied to that?

Uronema generally kills in days.
Was there any difference in the set up of the 2nd QT? Was it in use before for other fish treatment and quarantine?

I don’t know if perhaps there was some contamination but generally don’t think black works would be the cause...
 
One other thought - in addition to the live blackworms, I have been feeding a mix of thawed LRS and mysis. Now, for the past two weeks or so, I have been holding this mixture in the fridge because I thawed too much - rather than feeding freshly thawed food, this tank has been getting food that was thawed and refrigerated. Could I be killing them with what I am feeding them?

Does the food smell bad?
Vibriosis could spread if the food already contained the pathogen...once again you’d likely see some physical symptoms. Although it is exacerbated by stress etc.if you were feeding the same food all along you’d expect to see some manifestation before moving the fish. Is there a chance that the 2nd QT could have had corrosion or something get to it?


@Humblefish @Deinonych ?
 
2nd QT was disinfected by chlorine about a month ago, and has been sitting dry since then. And the food smells fine ...
 
If the water parameters were fine, there are two things that kill that rapidly: velvet and gram-negative infections. Velvet is rampant in the industry these days, and it doesn't have to display the classic symptoms while doing tremendous damage to the gills unseen. And it can take as long as 30 days or so for the disease to become active in a tank. Some suppliers and LFS are dosing their tanks with sub-therapeutic levels of copper to keep their losses down and to keep the fish looking good for sale. So the under dosed copper wears off and the disease comes roaring back, suddenly, without warning. But you mentioned that one of the fish was swimming at the top of the tank. Which could indicate the velvet parasite attacking the gills, and in response, some fish swim to the top and stay there.
 
The three remaining fish still seem to be ok. At this point, shall I start copper against velvet, since that seems to be the best guess?
 
Honestly, I don’t know. I agree with @Big G that for the most part velvet and gram negative bacteria (which is why I suggested vibrio) Are the fastest killers but I don’t know that either would be selective in the sense of sparing any animals and at such close proximity in a 30g you’d expect some symptoms.
 
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Just in case, I’d do large water changes daily or almost daily to make sure no external toxins are causing the problem.
 
Soak some pellets and mysis in garlic try this for a week and observe. A friend had the same problem you’re having and this method worked. No more deaths and his fish are all thriving now. I did this with my scopas when she was completely covered in ick after being in a Qt tank for a day after getting her from our LFS now she’s one of our happiest fish.
 
Hard to say what the problem might be with so many variables at play (number of fish, cramped quarters etc.) Like others have suggested, a gram-negative infection could have been the cause of deaths given the timeline and absence of symptoms.
 
The three remaining fish are showing no signs of any issues, so I will just sit and watch and wait.
 
Throw a Seachem Ammonia badge in there. Very inexpensive and woeka for a year.. no test kits! That'll rule out the ammonia spikes.

Even with a filter sponge transferred over, seven small fish could certainly overpower the bacteria short term causing a spike which could damage the gills.

I would go ahead and start ramping up copper slowly as a precaution as well.
 
A week later, and the remaining fish are all doing well. Whatever was going on seems to have passed ...
Awesome to hear. (Im sure you are planning to but...) Keep treatment going because treatment may only be suppressing it at the moment.

Definitely rewarding when things turn around.
 

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