Fish Dying Overnight to Bullying?

[JoeinLA]

We got a smaller flame angel (approx 2") and held in separate tank for 2 weeks. It looked healthy, was eating, etc. It was kept with a jawfish that was also healthy looking and eating.

We added both into our main tank yesterday, which also has a Tomini Tang (approx 4"). the Tomini tang immediately went after the flame angel, which fled under a small ledge where the Tomini Tang couldn't reach. The Tomini Tang also did a few flyby's on the jawfish, but the jawfish was its own home (a cave we put in there for it) and didn't appear to be too much bothered by the Tomini Tang.

The next morning, the flame angel was on its side, listless, and breathing very heavily. We put it into a small acclimation box with a cave, but the fish is now upside down, breathing very heavily, and I'm going to guess that it's not going to make it.

Could this be from bullying/terrorizing? Or should I be looking for something else. It's surprising that stress could do this overnight, but I'm at a loss as to what else it could be...

If from bullying, I'm going to remove the Tomini Tang.

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Was it treated for anything in qt?
At extreme levels, the stress harassment from another fish can certainly kill, though by that point mechanical damage would typically become visible.
Can you post pics and a short video to rule out disease?

 

[Spare time]

Its hard to say unless there are visible markings from an attack. However, I wouldn't remove the tomini tang unless it is doing this relentlessly to every edition. It is normal for a new fish to get chased on the first day/night

 

[JoeinLA]

We didn't treat for disease. we havent done QT before and were concerned with having to separate or get 1 or 2 extra sets of equipment. we just kept them isolated for 2 weeks (hence "separate tank" vs. QT).

There doesn't appaer to be any external "bites" or even fin nips.

Here's a short vid.

 

[Sharkbait19]

How was the fish acclimated?
The fast breathing and quick turn around make me worried of velvet.
#fishmedic

 

[JoeinLA]

How was the fish acclimated?
The fast breathing and quick turn around make me worried of velvet.
#fishmedic

i did a "standard" 45 min drop...?

i thought velvet would kill the 2 fish while they were in the separate tank within the 2 week observation period...

uh oh.... that would be my nightmare...

plus no white spots or film?

 

[Sharkbait19]

The thing that strays me away from aggression is that usually the affected fish will be pinned up in the corner and, unless it was quickly killed, tends to slowly die rather than have anything happen overnight.
Velvet doesn’t always show the white spots until it’s too late. It can take a bit to show (though earlier is most likely). Hence why a prophylactic copper treatment is the safest option.

How were params between the dt and qt?

 

[JoeinLA]

QT and DT should have been the same-ish, as I used the same salt, tho the alk and PH in the DT might have been higher due to alk dosing and also Co2 scrubbing on DT. I didn't test the QT params since I was doing water changes every 3 days...

 

[Tamberav]

I don't think this has to do with parameters at all, fish are pretty tolerant of changes and your QT would have to be like hyposalinity to really cause serious issues.

I can't say for sure if this is related to aggression but I have always noticed aggression is the worst late PM and early AM.

Tangs are not friendly but established flame angels can be just as mean to new fish.

I don't see any injuries but I have had fish go belly up when they got spooked and ran right into something hard.

If you are doing observation only on fish, 2 weeks is not enough. I would do 4-6 weeks... 6 weeks being better tbh, longer is always better. I have a angelfish not show disease until week 5 while in observation. I did find observation a good way to watch for velvet but found it mostly useless for ich. Seems fish can be carriers of ich for long periods in my experience.

 

[JoeinLA]

It didn't make it. here are pics of both sides if it helps. I'm pretty saddened. I thought the fish was doing so well and I'm so shocked that in less than 24 hours it could be dead. We pluck these things from the wild and have a responsibility to take care of them. and for everyone 1 that I buy, i know there are [many] that didn't make it just so i could have that one... sigh.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I think there is some acute problem, not related to aggression from the tomini. There are no visible wounds. The two differential diagnosis would be water quality issues (ruled out I think) or gill disease. The most common gill disease is velvet/Amyloodinium. The only common symptom is rapid breathing. You might see sort of a walleye look to the eyes and sometimes a faint dusting to the body. Gill flukes can also kill fish, but they don’t cause fish to go down this fast.
I would watch the other fish for rapid breathing over the next few weeks.
Jay

 

[JoeinLA]

I think there is some acute problem, not related to aggression from the tomini. There are no visible wounds. The two differential diagnosis would be water quality issues (ruled out I think) or gill disease. The most common gill disease is velvet/Amyloodinium. The only common symptom is rapid breathing. You might see sort of a walleye look to the eyes and sometimes a faint dusting to the body. Gill flukes can also kill fish, but they don’t cause fish to go down this fast.
I would watch the other fish for rapid breathing over the next few weeks.
Jay

Thanks for all the help. I will certainly be watching the entire tank closely over the next weeks.

One last comment: the fish did fall/jump from about 4 feet onto hardwood floors when we moved it from QT to DT. I didn't that such a fall would be even meaningful, but perhaps we killed it through our clumsiness and that it's not some disease or bullying. While fundamentally disappointing, it might be another cause rather than disease or bullying. or perhaps some combo of these factors.

 

[JoeinLA]

just to clarify re: the fall, the angel was swimming fine and otherwise acting "normal" other than when the Tang bullied it, so that's why I didn't think it was a big deal. but let me know if anyone feels otherwise.

I'm just trying to figure out what could have caused such a rapid death...

 

[killer2001]

The answer to your question may be as simple as the combination of all the events starting with QT to DT transfer, dropping the fish on the ground, and then the bullying from the Tomini.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for all the help. I will certainly be watching the entire tank closely over the next weeks.

One last comment: the fish did fall/jump from about 4 feet onto hardwood floors when we moved it from QT to DT. I didn't that such a fall would be even meaningful, but perhaps we killed it through our clumsiness and that it's not some disease or bullying. While fundamentally disappointing, it might be another cause rather than disease or bullying. or perhaps some combo of these factors.

Oh - that changes things a bit. A fish can develop internal injuries from a fall like that. If it had internal bleeding that could cause anemia that in turn can cause rapid breathing. That said, I’ve bounced a lot off fish off the floor and had them survive fine.
Jay

 

[immaman2011]

I had a tomini tang for a very short period of like 1 or 2 weeks. The tang terrorized my flameback and then mostly my diamond goby. Had to get rid of the tang and then the flameback cause the flamebacks attitude changed after that. I ended up getting a male polkadot anthias and he's been a model citizen except for feeding time lol. I had the same experience with my tomini, mirrors didn't help. Between the tomini and flameback one of them killed my yellow striped pygmy wrasse overnight, but there were obviously signs of biting and nipping on the wrasse. So not sure what caused your flame angels death. Was probably 90% chance the fall caused that.

 

[JoeinLA]

Sigh. Yeah I didn’t think he fall would have mattered. I’ve had fish jump out before without harm. Didn’t think it would be a big deal. Plus the fish seemed generally fine (other than hiding from the Tang) when we put him in and up to the lights going out.

hopefully this will be the last time we let a fish do a swan dive on to the floor.