Fish euthanasia decision?

[ngoodermuth]

Since it's so unknown, maybe the entire trifecta?

Could do that, especially the metro since it has anti-parasitic properties as well.

The only reason to be a bit more conservative would be the current state of the fish, and trying to have as little medicine-induced appetite suppression as possible...

 

[joec]

Could do that, especially the metro since it has anti-parasitic properties as well.

The only reason to be a bit more conservative would be the current state of the fish, and trying to have as little medicine-induced appetite suppression as possible...

 

[joec]

I was going to begin the triple threat tomorrow unless that’s too aggressive?

 

[Seamore2001]

Did I miss something? The fish is looking poorly and hasn't eaten in a few days and you want to euthanize it? Why? Is it laying on its side? Floating upside down at the water's surface? Floating in the current? Fins rotting off? Missing an eye or other essential body part? If the answer to those questions is no, leave it alone and wait. Unless the tank is a sterile wasteland, your fish should be able to survive a week easily without any food input from you. Sit back and watch - stop messing around with the animal and let it stabilize. Maybe it will surprise you.

Definitely not trying to flame you and recognize that it has been battling a serious illness, but at this point I'd recommend taking a wait and see attitude.

 

[Hermie]

Did I miss something? The fish is looking poorly and hasn't eaten in a few days and you want to euthanize it? Why? Is it laying on its side? Floating upside down at the water's surface? Floating in the current? Fins rotting off? Missing an eye or other essential body part? If the answer to those questions is no, leave it alone and wait. Unless the tank is a sterile wasteland, your fish should be able to survive a week easily without any food input from you. Sit back and watch - stop messing around with the animal and let it stabilize. Maybe it will surprise you.

Definitely not trying to flame you and recognize that it has been battling a serious illness, but at this point I'd recommend taking a wait and see attitude.

No offense but did you even read the first post? He said its been a month

 

[Seamore2001]

No offense but did you even read the first post? He said its been a month

Ah. I saw 3 days. A reread shows "3o" days (I missed the lower-case letter o in place of a zero). My mistake.

That said, I'd still consider taking a wait-and-see attitude. If the fish is hanging around for that long, it is getting some nutrition from somewhere. I'd probably take a hand's off attitude at this point and see if it can recover.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I was going to begin the triple threat tomorrow unless that’s too aggressive?

It's hard to say, maybe just start with the furan-2 for the first dose and see if it makes a difference or how he responds. Can always add the other's in a few hours later or with the next dose in 48 hours. I'd just hate to overwhelm the poor guy, especially since we aren't really sure what's wrong...

It's up to you though, since it's your fish. This is one of those times where the best course of action isn't really black and white....

 

[joec]

It's hard to say, maybe just start with the furan-2 for the first dose and see if it makes a difference or how he responds. Can always add the other's in a few hours later or with the next dose in 48 hours. I'd just hate to overwhelm the poor guy, especially since we aren't really sure what's wrong...

It's up to you though, since it's your fish. This is one of those times where the best course of action isn't really black and white....

 

[ScooterV]

Is your DT parasite free? If you have a rock with some GHA growing on it putting that in the QT may be worth a try. Once eating tie nori to the same rock.

 

[joec]

Is your DT parasite free? If you have a rock with some GHA growing on it putting that in the QT may be worth a try. Once eating tie nori to the same rock.

DT is fallow right now due to prazi resistant flukes. His favorite had always been Hikari algae pellets which I offer him daily, plus peas

I'm going to treat with Furan2 and Kanaplex today an see if perhaps this is infection due to recurring Flukes.

Its now been more than 30 days since I've seen him eat. I find it difficult to believe he would still be alive if he hadn't eaten anything for that long.

Something is definately wrong with him though

 

[Ferrell]

So when all is said and done what is the best way too euthanize?

 

[OrionN]

I only euthanized one fish in my life. My female Mandarin after she was blinded by a Sixline wrasse attack. My Sixline pair attack and pecked out the eyes of my female Mandarin in a few seconds. Even then she go from a fat mandarin to skin and bone before I euthanized her.
They did not touch my Male Mandarin. This is after 2 years living together in a 420 gal DT and both pairs were fat
Good luck with your fish.

 

[OrionN]

So when all is said and done what is the best way too euthanize?

I put the fish in a cup of water in the freezer. Frozen solid in AM

 

[Hermie]

So when all is said and done what is the best way too euthanize?

• dim lighting
  
• mix about 10 drops of clove oil into a bottle of water (salt water is better but not required) and shake it up
• capture the fish using a plastic bag if possible, have them swim into it, instead of using a net
  
• place them in the separate container (small, like 1 gallon) and slowly drip the water bottle into the container, you want the whole bottle dripped in by 30 minutes to 1 hour

As the clove oil water drips into the container, the fish begins breathing heavier. I don't know the exact physiological effects however I assume it's similar to oxygen deprivation or carbon monoxide poisoning in humans. The fish fails to respirate properly however they are not prevented from normal behavior, as their oxygen level drops the start swimming upside down and slowing their movements. Eventually passing away. Under ideal circumstance this occurs within 30 mins...

If anyone has advice to improve the "humane-ness" of my procedure I would be glad to listen. Thanks.

I put the fish in a cup of water in the freezer. Frozen solid in AM

It's really not a good idea IMO and certainly not the best way. A quick whack with a mallet would be less painful and instantaneous.

 

[OrionN]

As the water get colder, the nerve stop working and the fish would feel no pain. Fish are cold blood, they just become more lethargic and go into a coma and the temperature decreases. Clean, no pain. A wack in the head even if it kill him would surely be painful if even just a fraction of a second. It is a lot worst if this does not kill him, then think of the smashed fish flesh everywhere.
What does clove oil do? unlikely to dissolves in water because it is an oil. I would think it would obstruct the gill. Breathing harder and asphyxia in human is not a comfortable feeling, extremely uncomfortable. As a medical director of a hospice service, I instruct the nurses to sedate patient with morphine, deaden the nerve and the brain to keep them comfortable at the end of life.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Here is @Humblefish ‘s write-up regarding euthanizing a fish.

How to euthanize a fish
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh.../How-to-euthanize-a-fish.266222/&share_type=t

 

[Hermie]

As the water get colder, the nerve stop working and the fish would feel no pain. Fish are cold blood, they just become more lethargic and go into a coma and the temperature decreases. Clean, no pain. A wack in the head even if it kill him would surely be painful if even just a fraction of a second. It is a lot worst if this does not kill him, then think of the smashed fish flesh everywhere.
What does clove oil do? unlikely to dissolves in water because it is an oil. I would think it would obstruct the gill. Breathing harder and asphyxia in human is not a comfortable feeling, extremely uncomfortable. As a medical director of a hospice service, I instruct the nurses to sedate patient with morphine, deaden the nerve and the brain to keep them comfortable at the end of life.

Interesting points. My concern is that a fish feels pain in colder temperatures the same way a person does, whether or not they are cold-blooded. Afterall, there is a point at which the water is too cold for them to survive and their survival instincts should kick in. Second, there would be a point at which water crystalizes, and if the fish is still alive, it could feel the water crystalize in its body before death. Finally, observation is an important part of identifying stress while euthanizing a fish, and using the freezer approach prevents direct observation for the length of the procedure.

from the thread @ngoodermuth posted:

The American Veterinary Medical Association has a document discussing euthanasia methods. Link is here: https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf The discussion of fish starts on page 67. The AVMA does not consider slow freezing (i.e. putting your fish in a dish of water into the freezer) an acceptable euthanasia method unless the fish is anesthetized. However, rapid freezing is considered humane for small fish. For rapid freezing, the AVMA suggests:

"It is acceptable for zebrafish (D rerio) to be euthanized by rapid chilling (2° to 4°C) until loss of orientation and operculum movements and subsequent holding times in ice-chilled water, specific to finfish size and age. Zebrafish adults (approx 3.8 cm long) can be rapidly killed (10 to 20 seconds) by immersion in 2° to 4°C (36° to 39°F) water. Adult zebrafish should be exposed for a minimum of 10 minutes and fry 4 to 7 dpf for at least 20 minutes following loss of operculum movement.

Until further research is conducted, rapid chilling is acceptable with conditions for other small-bodied, similarly sized tropical and subtropical stenothermic species. Species-specific thermal tolerance and body size will determine the appropriateness and effectiveness of rapid chilling for euthanasia of finfish. Finfish size is important because the rate of heat loss via thermal conduction from a body is proportional to its surface area. Based on these 2 factors, it has been suggested that rapid chilling in water associated with an ice slurry is a suitable killing method for small tropical and subtropical finfish species 3.8 cm in length (tip of the snout to the posterior end of the last vertebra) or smaller, having lower lethal temperatures above 4°C.

To ensure optimal hypothermal shock (ie, rapid killing), transfer of finfish into ice water must be completed as quickly as possible. This means rapid transitions from acclimatization temperature to 2° to 4°C must be achieved. This can be accomplished by using minimal water volume to transfer finfish (ie, using a net to place finfish in chilled water). In addition, finfish should not be in direct contact with the ice in the water; rather a depression should be formed in the ice slurry to expose the entire surface of the finfish to the chilled water. Full contact with cold water ensures optimal exposure and rapid chilling of the finfish. Water temperature must not exceed 2° to 4°C. Well-insulated containers, such as coolers, will assist in maintaining the ice slurry and a probe thermometer can be used to confirm water temperature.

This method of euthanasia is not appropriate for temperate, cool, or cold-water–tolerant finfish, such as carp, koi, goldfish, or other species that can survive at 4°C and below. It is appropriate for zebrafish and other small-bodied (3.8-cm-long or smaller) tropical and subtropical stenothermic finfish, for which the lower lethal temperature range is above 4°C. This method can also be acceptable for small to medium-sized (2.8- to 13.5-cm-long) Australian river gizzard shad, as long as secondary euthanasia methods are applied after finfish are rendered nonresponsive. However, because of surface-to-volume considerations, use of this method is not appropriate in other medium to large-bodied finfish until data regarding its applicability to euthanasia for those species become available."

 

[OrionN]

As the temp get low, nothing will work, especially the nerve. Nerve does not work, there will be no pain. Human is warm blood, as the temp of the body goes down we will attempt to generate heat, thus all the shivering and other reaction . This will not happen with fish, since they are cold blooded. They just become lethargic.
Most people who almost died of exposure, and later resuscitated, always stated that they just feel tire and want to go to sleep, which is something one would expect as our body become chill.
Although I do not know how the fish feel, I would expect them to "feel" about the same. Because of this reason, I feel that chilling and freeing a small fish is a good way to euthanize them. I do not feel that drop them into a near freeing water is painless. As the fish hit the very cold water, all their sensor nerve will be firing like crazy before stop function all together. I would imagine this to be very similar drop your hand into liquid nitrogen or very cold water. Very painful until the nerve is destroyed.
I have seen crabs and crawfish boiled a live. If they are put in cold water then the water bring up to a boil, there hardly any movement, but if you drop a live crap into boiling water, there is a lot of movement that stop very quickly.
Quick freeze over 5 second is not a painless way to died.

 

[Hermie]

As the temp get low, nothing will work, especially the nerve. Nerve does not work, there will be no pain. Human is warm blood, as the temp of the body goes down we will attempt to generate heat, thus all the shivering and other reaction . This will not happen with fish, since they are cold blooded. They just become lethargic.
Most people who almost died of exposure, and later resuscitated, always stated that they just feel tire and want to go to sleep, which is something one would expect as our body become chill.
Although I do not know how the fish feel, I would expect them to "feel" about the same. Because of this reason, I feel that chilling and freeing a small fish is a good way to euthanize them. I do not feel that drop them into a near freeing water is painless. As the fish hit the very cold water, all their sensor nerve will be firing like crazy before stop function all together. I would imagine this to be very similar drop your hand into liquid nitrogen or very cold water. Very painful until the nerve is destroyed.
I have seen crabs and crawfish boiled a live. If they are put in cold water then the water bring up to a boil, there hardly any movement, but if you drop a live crap into boiling water, there is a lot of movement that stop very quickly.
Quick freeze over 5 second is not a painless way to died.

Personally I feel the most important part of euthanasia is that the person performing it on the animal is making their best effort to minimize or remove pain and suffering from the animal's death. Whether a slow-freeze or quick-freeze method works best, I believe you are making that effort, you put a lot of thought into it and that's what ultimately matters. Euthanasia is a reflection on ourselves. Also to the OP sorry to hijack the thread.