Fish immune to disease?

[stanleo]

I am sorry and you can make up your own mind but I feel "all" fish can become "totally" immune from every communicable disease. There are a few tanks on here that are long running and never had any disease.

My own reef just hit it's 50th birthday and no fish in about 40 years has had any communicable disease. I have not lost one fish to disease in that time and I have never quarantined or medicated.

It is very easy but many people on here will just tell you it is luck so I am going to keep my tank running another 50 years just for kicks and at 100 years old I will see if people still think it's luck.

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

I think this success is a direct result of not quarantining or medicating. I haven't dealt with any decease and I have never done either. My yellow tang did have HLLE but that was not a result of a pathogen. I believe that a fish has the immune system to fight anything in a tank, ich, velvet, whatever. When we expose them to the stress of a small quarantine tank that we are constantly medicating and messing with and then put them in the display, an environment completely different from the QT, that amount of stress seriously impacts the fish's immune system and makes them more vulnerable to disease. It is counter productive. Fish live their entire lives in a soup of pathogens, parasites and disease so they have evolved an immune system that allows them to do it.

 

[atoll]

Look it this way, and stick to the immunity fish topic.
Paul has posting so many years on about immunity tank, but still doesn't help much people successful using his method.
Or at least not accepted as a repeatable method.
It's not going to change just posting like that another 50years.
Time to change, and make a difference.
There is a saying: You have to push someone to the wall, to make him do something great.
And I want to believe that Paul is going to change the saltwater aquarium keeping forever.
But Paul really have to something more about it.
Paul is going in the history book.

Jx

Are you for real. Have read Paul's posts on many threads not just his own esp those where he answers many many questions posed to him? Questions about his methods along with the help and how to's?
Sounds like you haven't or have ignored them just like I will do from now on with your posts in this thread. You cannot be serious. Sheeeshhhh!

 

[Uncle99]

I'm just tired of Paul posting a lot on the forum, but couldn't help a lot of people, including me.
What the point of posting a lot, and not help at all.

Then don’t read his posts. He won’t be hurt.
He, and quite a few other members here have made me successful, and for this, I can’t thank them enough.

So one more time, thank you members!

 

[Maritimer]

This thread feels like a pretty good place to examine my current situation, in hopes of finding a way forward.

Back in late 2020, I had an outbreak of ich, which affected most of my fish and killed some. I pulled all of the remaining fish out of the 225gallon display, save one tiny Trimma goby that I couldn't catch. (Theoretically, that leaves ich in the display - though probably not very much of it. Trimmas are tiny.) After a fallow period during which algae grew rampant (and during which I added a CUC from ReefCleaners), I reintroduced the fish. The tangs ate the algae, and I went about the business of restocking some of the fish I'd lost and missed. (I haven't been able to restock the two flame angels I lost in QT, out of my original trio ... and I miss them something awful . . . ) Zero symptoms of ich. No white spots. No flashing. No nothin'.

Was at Petco a month and a half or so back, and they've got a powder blue tang that looks in decent shape. Not the wafer-thin ones I'm used to seeing, but thick, if pale. Three weeks in my 75 gallon QT with copper (2.33, Hanna-checked) and General Cure, and she's looking great. Fine, fat, rich deep color and all. The salinity she came with was low (standard) but through replacing evaporation with salt water, it's close enough to introduce. Three days in an acclimation box, application of a full-length mirror, and the tang joined the gang with almost zero issues.

And when the next morning dawns, shows the dimpled skin that marks the onset of ich.

Meantime, my fave LFS had a sale, and I've already got new residents in QT, again with copper; a couple of gobies, a solorensis wrasse and an emperor angel about 2.5 - 3" long, which I'm hoping can help with an infestation of majano. Salinity in QT is approaching that of the display, and I can probably move these guys over next week or so.

(My display does not run a UV sterilizer - how important is that to the system that Paul B., Atoll, and WV Ned are using?)

The other fish in the display display no symptoms, but after two weeks, the powder blue still shows symptoms of full-blown ich. I'm feeding NLS pellets and LRS Herbivore twice daily, along with nori and frozen whole clams periodically.

I'm curious to hear what the recommendations of _this_thread's_ participants would be, regarding my next steps. The way I see it, my options are to A: Move the new fish to the display and hope everyone makes it, or B: Tear down the display (again), move all of the resident fish into the 75, treat with copper, and run fallow for 45 - 72 days.

Thanks in advance for any guidance offered . . .

~Bruce

 

[stanleo]

This thread feels like a pretty good place to examine my current situation, in hopes of finding a way forward.

Back in late 2020, I had an outbreak of ich, which affected most of my fish and killed some. I pulled all of the remaining fish out of the 225gallon display, save one tiny Trimma goby that I couldn't catch. (Theoretically, that leaves ich in the display - though probably not very much of it. Trimmas are tiny.) After a fallow period during which algae grew rampant (and during which I added a CUC from ReefCleaners), I reintroduced the fish. The tangs ate the algae, and I went about the business of restocking some of the fish I'd lost and missed. (I haven't been able to restock the two flame angels I lost in QT, out of my original trio ... and I miss them something awful . . . ) Zero symptoms of ich. No white spots. No flashing. No nothin'.

Was at Petco a month and a half or so back, and they've got a powder blue tang that looks in decent shape. Not the wafer-thin ones I'm used to seeing, but thick, if pale. Three weeks in my 75 gallon QT with copper (2.33, Hanna-checked) and General Cure, and she's looking great. Fine, fat, rich deep color and all. The salinity she came with was low (standard) but through replacing evaporation with salt water, it's close enough to introduce. Three days in an acclimation box, application of a full-length mirror, and the tang joined the gang with almost zero issues.

And when the next morning dawns, shows the dimpled skin that marks the onset of ich.

Meantime, my fave LFS had a sale, and I've already got new residents in QT, again with copper; a couple of gobies, a solorensis wrasse and an emperor angel about 2.5 - 3" long, which I'm hoping can help with an infestation of majano. Salinity in QT is approaching that of the display, and I can probably move these guys over next week or so.

(My display does not run a UV sterilizer - how important is that to the system that Paul B., Atoll, and WV Ned are using?)

The other fish in the display display no symptoms, but after two weeks, the powder blue still shows symptoms of full-blown ich. I'm feeding NLS pellets and LRS Herbivore twice daily, along with nori and frozen whole clams periodically.

I'm curious to hear what the recommendations of _this_thread's_ participants would be, regarding my next steps. The way I see it, my options are to A: Move the new fish to the display and hope everyone makes it, or B: Tear down the display (again), move all of the resident fish into the 75, treat with copper, and run fallow for 45 - 72 days.

Thanks in advance for any guidance offered . . .

~Bruce

IMO your tank will always have ich in it. I think most tanks have ich in them but a healthy stress free fish doesn't suffer from it because it's immune system will fight it off. Don't put the new fish or any of the others in a QT. Just keep feeding them well and leave them be. Let them fight the disease the way evolution taught them to. If you put them in a QT and medicate them for weeks, you are only adding to their stress level, damaging their immune system in the process.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

ear what the recommendations of _this_thread's_ participants would be, regarding my next step

Not sure why I am quoting a last line of the post...

if you didn't catch the first fish and treat him with copper then any copper treatment outside of trying to save a fish was pointless. All fish need to go through poison *cough* sorry, copper and the display needs to remain fallow for 45 days (this also changes depending on who I ask).

Two options here. Remove all fish and re-fallow the tank. Treat all fish in a separate QT and treat copper. The other it seems is the ditch the pellets and focus on high quality food and live with ich in the display.

 

[atoll]

This thread feels like a pretty good place to examine my current situation, in hopes of finding a way forward.

Back in late 2020, I had an outbreak of ich, which affected most of my fish and killed some. I pulled all of the remaining fish out of the 225gallon display, save one tiny Trimma goby that I couldn't catch. (Theoretically, that leaves ich in the display - though probably not very much of it. Trimmas are tiny.) After a fallow period during which algae grew rampant (and during which I added a CUC from ReefCleaners), I reintroduced the fish. The tangs ate the algae, and I went about the business of restocking some of the fish I'd lost and missed. (I haven't been able to restock the two flame angels I lost in QT, out of my original trio ... and I miss them something awful . . . ) Zero symptoms of ich. No white spots. No flashing. No nothin'.

Was at Petco a month and a half or so back, and they've got a powder blue tang that looks in decent shape. Not the wafer-thin ones I'm used to seeing, but thick, if pale. Three weeks in my 75 gallon QT with copper (2.33, Hanna-checked) and General Cure, and she's looking great. Fine, fat, rich deep color and all. The salinity she came with was low (standard) but through replacing evaporation with salt water, it's close enough to introduce. Three days in an acclimation box, application of a full-length mirror, and the tang joined the gang with almost zero issues.

And when the next morning dawns, shows the dimpled skin that marks the onset of ich.

Meantime, my fave LFS had a sale, and I've already got new residents in QT, again with copper; a couple of gobies, a solorensis wrasse and an emperor angel about 2.5 - 3" long, which I'm hoping can help with an infestation of majano. Salinity in QT is approaching that of the display, and I can probably move these guys over next week or so.

(My display does not run a UV sterilizer - how important is that to the system that Paul B., Atoll, and WV Ned are using?)

The other fish in the display display no symptoms, but after two weeks, the powder blue still shows symptoms of full-blown ich. I'm feeding NLS pellets and LRS Herbivore twice daily, along with nori and frozen whole clams periodically.

I'm curious to hear what the recommendations of _this_thread's_ participants would be, regarding my next steps. The way I see it, my options are to A: Move the new fish to the display and hope everyone makes it, or B: Tear down the display (again), move all of the resident fish into the 75, treat with copper, and run fallow for 45 - 72 days.

Thanks in advance for any guidance offered . . .

~Bruce

I don't run UV or ozone, I don't have mechanical prefiltration. I do however run an Oxydator. I believe the environment we create is important along with the foods we feed go a long way to success.

 

[stanleo]

BTW, I don't grow my own foods. I don't breed black worms or anything. I do have a large fuge that houses all manor of critters that I know get into the display tank. Copepods, amphipods, isopods, ostracods, and Mysis shrimps. I am sure the fish have a constant supply of these. I have never QT'd or medicated anything. I have never had a disease outbreak. The worse thing I have dealt with was HLLE in one fish because of stray voltage in the tank. I would stand by this method of no QT or medication any day. And I do not have access to the ocean. With the exception of the first rock that went into the tank, all the rest of the rock went it dry. I have also never dipped any of my corals, what ever is on them, goes into the tank so I am confident that at some point, I added something awful to the tank but my fish and corals show no signs of any harm because of it. I also don't run UV or reactors of any kind.

 

[WVNed]

This thread feels like a pretty good place to examine my current situation, in hopes of finding a way forward.

Back in late 2020, I had an outbreak of ich, which affected most of my fish and killed some. I pulled all of the remaining fish out of the 225gallon display, save one tiny Trimma goby that I couldn't catch. (Theoretically, that leaves ich in the display - though probably not very much of it. Trimmas are tiny.) After a fallow period during which algae grew rampant (and during which I added a CUC from ReefCleaners), I reintroduced the fish. The tangs ate the algae, and I went about the business of restocking some of the fish I'd lost and missed. (I haven't been able to restock the two flame angels I lost in QT, out of my original trio ... and I miss them something awful . . . ) Zero symptoms of ich. No white spots. No flashing. No nothin'.

Was at Petco a month and a half or so back, and they've got a powder blue tang that looks in decent shape. Not the wafer-thin ones I'm used to seeing, but thick, if pale. Three weeks in my 75 gallon QT with copper (2.33, Hanna-checked) and General Cure, and she's looking great. Fine, fat, rich deep color and all. The salinity she came with was low (standard) but through replacing evaporation with salt water, it's close enough to introduce. Three days in an acclimation box, application of a full-length mirror, and the tang joined the gang with almost zero issues.

And when the next morning dawns, shows the dimpled skin that marks the onset of ich.

Meantime, my fave LFS had a sale, and I've already got new residents in QT, again with copper; a couple of gobies, a solorensis wrasse and an emperor angel about 2.5 - 3" long, which I'm hoping can help with an infestation of majano. Salinity in QT is approaching that of the display, and I can probably move these guys over next week or so.

(My display does not run a UV sterilizer - how important is that to the system that Paul B., Atoll, and WV Ned are using?)

The other fish in the display display no symptoms, but after two weeks, the powder blue still shows symptoms of full-blown ich. I'm feeding NLS pellets and LRS Herbivore twice daily, along with nori and frozen whole clams periodically.

I'm curious to hear what the recommendations of _this_thread's_ participants would be, regarding my next steps. The way I see it, my options are to A: Move the new fish to the display and hope everyone makes it, or B: Tear down the display (again), move all of the resident fish into the 75, treat with copper, and run fallow for 45 - 72 days.

Thanks in advance for any guidance offered . . .

~Bruce

I have been keeping marine tanks since 2007 before that I started FW in 1984. I haven't seen ich since about 1988.

I do run ozone. I don't think it will cure ich. I did have an 80 watt UV running for about 9 months but just took it down.
I don't have any mechanical filtration either.

What would I do? I have never had to decide. I would probably put the UV back in the system. Mine is properly sized to sterilize and the entire sump flow goes through it.

When I receive new livestock it all goes into the tank including the water it came in.

I happen to believe there is some simple way to interrupt the ich lifecycle that some of us have stumbled on but never realized. Something simple like high flow.

I do not think I got lucky and managed to avoid all the bad things with the 100s of separate additions I have made over the years so it has to be something else.

 

[Paul B]

There are also ones that want to keep marine fish and corals in a sterile environment like a tank full of GloFish with little glass beads and LED lit doodads. OMG, a worm or a bit of algae.

OOohhhhhh NNNooooo, so do I have to take down my tank and give away my GloFish?

And I want to believe that Paul is going to change the saltwater aquarium keeping forever.
But Paul really have to something more about it.

No, I really don't.

There is a saying: You have to push someone to the wall, to make him do something great.

There is another saying , push someone to the wall, and they won't like that. Especially if they have PTSD. :mad:

Do it Paul for God sake.
You are going to save billions of fish dying in quarantine.
You have all the time to write on the forum, but people still can't believe your success.
Start a new tank from zero, take picture every day show the world that zero fish will die from disease in your new tank.

I already have a tank which I feel is successful and I have written thousands of posts, a Pod cast and a book. Now you do that.

I also don't have the amount of free time as you think I do.

I want to hear about all the long lived, healthy quarantined, medicated tanks. Good luck with that.

I keep saying, this hobby is very easy but we try to make it very hard.

It seems for some reason I can't get my head around, that almost everyone is a Noob or someone wanting to start a new tank. Where is your old tank?

Noobs will have problems almost no matter what they do and it is not only because they are Noobs but because I feel they are doing it wrong no matter what anyone says.
My method and Atoll, Lasse etc. have matured systems but they started out new.

To be almost assured of success with a new system "never" start a tank with new, dry rock. You don't have enough money for live rock! Your fish don't really care. Instead of buying a doser, State of the art skimmer, controller, iodine test kit, medications, Posters of Nancy Pelosi, and multitudes of other expensive useless things, buy quality live rock.

There, I said it, now the secret is out. Do you know why?
Because live rock already has all the live bacteria in it from millions of years in the sea and dry rock has bacteria in it from the dust the guy who works in the LFS brings up while cleaning out the 15 dead yellow tangs that jumped out and got petrified behind Tupperware sump under the tanks.

The hobby runs on the bacteria on live rock. Not your test kits or controllers. Just buy live rock. I don't know what it costs but if you can't afford it try golf or ping pong.

Starting a tank with dry rock is a sure fire path to the disease forum.

So after you fill a tank with as much live rock as you can afford, look for your garbage can. After you find that throw in all your dry foods. Yes, that includes "quality" pellets and anything freeze dried. Don't mention flakes and don't even eat cornflakes yourself.

All dry foods are baked, (except freeze dried which are,,,well,,,freeze dried).

If the food doesn't need refrigeration it has preservatives in it. Preservatives are poisons. It poisons bacteria, viruses, mold, fungus etc.

Now what runs our tanks? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BACTERIA. So we don't want to kill it. We want it all over our rock and more importantly, "inside" our fish..

The "correct" bacteria not the bacteria from your hands or the back of the 1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass the LFS owner
brought in the foods with.

WE want to feed foods with One ingredient. The food should say something like Clam, worm, mysis, etc.
Not monosodium glutenasfungusinate, refungisidetrileptilate, wallpaperpaste asinate etc.

Don't put copper on anything. You shouldn't have bought a fish covered in parasites. Copper is a poison and it kills everything. It will probably kill a water buffalo if he took a bath in it but copper really kills bacteria which is why they used to make door knobs out of the stuff. Now it is to expensive so we use recycled paint cans for them.

Remember about bacteria? We want to keep it alive. The wrong bacteria in a fishes gut eliminates the fishes immune system. Do you know what we call a fish without an immune system?

A dead fish. So after you fill the tank with live rock and some water, wait a while and add something like a dead piece of fish or water buffalo to feed the bacteria. Think of bacteria as livestock more important than your fish.

Start a live white worm culture. $15.00 and it lasts forever. Many people don't use live worms, but this is my post and I say it is so much easier to have healthy fish with live worms.
Don't tell your wife and don't put them in her sock drawer.

Also get some kind of frozen food. I use LRS food but I would not use any commercial food without supplementing it a few times a week with something I know has living bacteria in it like worms or clams from a supermarket, "not" a LFS.

Now someone next week is going to write that they used my system but couldn't get live rock so I used parts from my neighbors lawnmower, but I didn't clean it so it should be fine.

I couldn't get live worms so I used licorice and I spit in a can of flake food to give it live bacteria.

I started out not wanting to post anything here but I get carried away. I don't know why I bother. I am fed up to hear.

My hand is under my chin. Because of people saying they use my system but they only change a few things.

Atoll and Lasse have fantastic systems and have a slightly different method. If their system seems easier, do that.

But don't "almost" follow someone then criticize their advice when you do it wrong.

I get PMs every day on 7 forums and try to help people if I can. But not all new systems will work especially if it uses new, dry rock. It almost can't happen.

Now I have some important, wife stuff to do so good luck anyone who is trying to start a tank. I hope at some point one of us helped you even slightly.

 

[WVNed]

Once more into the breach

Don't tell anyone but it is pray and then dump. The other way is wrong.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Question for @Jay Hemdal

I am sitting here stuck in the middle and haven't jumped on board with a side but I have a few key questions. I love feeding my fish live food whenever possible. If I were to throw in a live clam from a grocery store that was just slightly popped open, would I be reintroducing myself to ich, velvet, parasites, ect? If it was frozen (I can only feed so many live clams before they spoil and died) then are these parasites effectively killed?

I love these threads. I will continue to live in the middle and get as healthy of a diet to my fish as possible.

Live clams are mostly a vector for bacterial diseases, and few of those bacteria are not already in your tank. Most clams do not come from tropical regions so would not be expected to harbor tropical parasites. Freezing kills those parasites, but not all bacteria. Feeding out live fish is another issue.
Jay

 

[jx fang]

OOohhhhhh NNNooooo, so do I have to take down my tank and give away my GloFish?


No, I really don't.


There is another saying , push someone to the wall, and they won't like that. Especially if they have PTSD. :mad:



I already have a tank which I feel is successful and I have written thousands of posts, a Pod cast and a book. Now you do that.

I also don't have the amount of free time as you think I do.

I want to hear about all the long lived, healthy quarantined, medicated tanks. Good luck with that.

I keep saying, this hobby is very easy but we try to make it very hard.

It seems for some reason I can't get my head around, that almost everyone is a Noob or someone wanting to start a new tank. Where is your old tank?

Noobs will have problems almost no matter what they do and it is not only because they are Noobs but because I feel they are doing it wrong no matter what anyone says.
My method and Atoll, Lasse etc. have matured systems but they started out new.

To be almost assured of success with a new system "never" start a tank with new, dry rock. You don't have enough money for live rock! Your fish don't really care. Instead of buying a doser, State of the art skimmer, controller, iodine test kit, medications, Posters of Nancy Pelosi, and multitudes of other expensive useless things, buy quality live rock.

There, I said it, now the secret is out. Do you know why?
Because live rock already has all the live bacteria in it from millions of years in the sea and dry rock has bacteria in it from the dust the guy who works in the LFS brings up while cleaning out the 15 dead yellow tangs that jumped out and got petrified behind Tupperware sump under the tanks.

The hobby runs on the bacteria on live rock. Not your test kits or controllers. Just buy live rock. I don't know what it costs but if you can't afford it try golf or ping pong.

Starting a tank with dry rock is a sure fire path to the disease forum.

So after you fill a tank with as much live rock as you can afford, look for your garbage can. After you find that throw in all your dry foods. Yes, that includes "quality" pellets and anything freeze dried. Don't mention flakes and don't even eat cornflakes yourself.

All dry foods are baked, (except freeze dried which are,,,well,,,freeze dried).

If the food doesn't need refrigeration it has preservatives in it. Preservatives are poisons. It poisons bacteria, viruses, mold, fungus etc.

Now what runs our tanks? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BACTERIA. So we don't want to kill it. We want it all over our rock and more importantly, "inside" our fish..

The "correct" bacteria not the bacteria from your hands or the back of the 1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass the LFS owner
brought in the foods with.

WE want to feed foods with One ingredient. The food should say something like Clam, worm, mysis, etc.
Not monosodium glutenasfungusinate, refungisidetrileptilate, wallpaperpaste asinate etc.

Don't put copper on anything. You shouldn't have bought a fish covered in parasites. Copper is a poison and it kills everything. It will probably kill a water buffalo if he took a bath in it but copper really kills bacteria which is why they used to make door knobs out of the stuff. Now it is to expensive so we use recycled paint cans for them.

Remember about bacteria? We want to keep it alive. The wrong bacteria in a fishes gut eliminates the fishes immune system. Do you know what we call a fish without an immune system?

A dead fish. So after you fill the tank with live rock and some water, wait a while and add something like a dead piece of fish or water buffalo to feed the bacteria. Think of bacteria as livestock more important than your fish.

Start a live white worm culture. $15.00 and it lasts forever. Many people don't use live worms, but this is my post and I say it is so much easier to have healthy fish with live worms.
Don't tell your wife and don't put them in her sock drawer.

Also get some kind of frozen food. I use LRS food but I would not use any commercial food without supplementing it a few times a week with something I know has living bacteria in it like worms or clams from a supermarket, "not" a LFS.

Now someone next week is going to write that they used my system but couldn't get live rock so I used parts from my neighbors lawnmower, but I didn't clean it so it should be fine.

I couldn't get live worms so I used licorice and I spit in a can of flake food to give it live bacteria.

I started out not wanting to post anything here but I get carried away. I don't know why I bother. I am fed up to hear.

My hand is under my chin. Because of people saying they use my system but they only change a few things.

Atoll and Lasse have fantastic systems and have a slightly different method. If their system seems easier, do that.

But don't "almost" follow someone then criticize their advice when you do it wrong.

I get PMs every day on 7 forums and try to help people if I can. But not all new systems will work especially if it uses new, dry rock. It almost can't happen.

Now I have some important, wife stuff to do so good luck anyone who is trying to start a tank. I hope at some point one of us helped you even slightly.

Oh no, you are not going to do it? That’s so sad.
Think about you could have saved billions of fish lives.
Hawaii will resume fish collection immediately.
Instead of spend time to write a book, better started a tank 5 years ago, or does it need 10 year to mature.
Then from now on, no more fish diseases.
Companies will start making Paul B method packages, including real live rocks and worm breeding equipments, 100% success rate guaranteed.
Real live rocks is very cheap here, about $10 an lbs, rocks that never left the water.
But I really don’t want to do live worms, can’t deal with stinky stuffs in the house.
Then it’s still very useful information, if the tank without live worms failed, at least we know live worms is a must, no live worm, no go.
But again I doing it, is not enough, if it fails, “I” must be doing something wrong.
Until I do it right, then, it right and works.
So basically, it’s just waiting for success, which is no difference than doing any other method.
There is only one Paul B, you have to do it.
Again, think about you can save billions of fish lives.
Save the ocean!!!! Please



jx

 

[Lasse]

Start a new tank from zero, take picture every day show the world that zero fish will die from disease in your new tank.

This tank (picture today) is started 2016- You can follow it step for step here

Build Thread - Lasses Dream Build

Hi all My name is Lasse Forsberg and I live in small place named Bohus – 20 kilometres north Gothenburg, Sweden. I got my first tank 1961 when I was eleven years old and lived in an inland country town 160 kilometres from Gothenburg – I had it for a couple of years but soon I become a teenager...

www.reef2reef.com

Fish have died for me - it always do of different reasons but I have never have any disease that just knock down the aquaria. I have had secondary bacteria infections after mechanical injuries that my fish have fixed by themself.

I do no QT - however I adapt all my fishes in the refugium for 1 - 3 weeks before they going out in the DT.

I use an oxidator

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I'm curious to hear what the recommendations of _this_thread's_ participants would be, regarding my next steps. The way I see it, my options are to A: Move the new fish to the display and hope everyone makes it, or B: Tear down the display (again), move all of the resident fish into the 75, treat with copper, and run fallow for 45 - 72 days.

In this case - I would probably use a third method. Take out the tang and run TTM for 7 days. But it is a new stress moment and I would study the tang carefully and see if it looks like it will manage the problem by him/herself first. Try to answer questions like - Is it eating well, show know behavior that indicate a disease and so on.

After the treatment you have done - I´m sure that the new tang was not the vector for the outbreak - it must have come from your DT. However - when you got in a substrate (the tang) where the parasite can develop - it can result in a rising amount of parasite larvae that in the end can weaken the other fishes defence system just by their numbers. ( I can hit my thumb with a needle - nothing happens - but if I hit the thumb 1000 times in a fast row - my thumb will disappear.)

With help of observations - you must by your self decide if and when you should move the fish and use ttm.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Jx Fang. I am 72 years old and am not going to start another tank. If mine crashes, cracks or gets infected by locusts, I will not be in the hobby any longer. 65 years is long enough. Plenty of people can start a new tank or like Lasse said, follow his.

Also as I said, my method uses worms and I have been feeding worms to my salt water fish since 1971. If you have been keeping fish longer by not feeding worms, then do that. But that is "my" method.

 

[Lasse]

I have tried not to be sarcastic about the use of chemical drugs and heavy metals as a preventive tool in the fight against facultative pathogen microorganism for water living animals. @jx fang - If your real thoughts are that the method to use ecological principles in our tanks will kill fish - please show that with facts and also show that it kill more fish, corals and other inverts compared with a full use of prophylactic chemical/drug therapy. Otherwise treat others with respect. We are a bunch of people being active in the aquarium hobby since the beginning of the 70:ths that have the same opinion of this. Your sarcastic "attacks" on Paul B is a total lack of respect for us elder aquarists that have been - by experiences - convinced that our way of handle things works. At least 4 of us (the ones I know are of age) active in this thread and share Paul B:s basic thoughts have aquarium experiences going back 50 years in time. Your tone in this discussion is an insult of our knowledge and experiences. If you want to argue around the basic principles - please do that - your welcome to show facts that convince us that we are wrong - but please do not use sarcasm and do not mock us because our experience says otherwise in our aquarium compared to yours.

I have a saying in my signature that describe the problem.

I am not young enough to know everything, but neither so old that I forgotten everything

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Lasse, what is that pink thing on your head?

 

[Maritimer]

In this case - I would probably use a third method. Take out the tang and run TTM for 7 days. But it is a new stress moment and I would study the tang carefully and see if it looks like it will manage the problem by him/herself first. Try to answer questions like - Is it eating well, show know behavior that indicate a disease and so on.

After the treatment you have done - I´m sure that the new tang was not the vector for the outbreak - it must have come from your DT. However - when you got in a substrate (the tang) where the parasite can develop - it can result in a rising amount of parasite larvae that in the end can weaken the other fishes defence system just by their numbers. ( I can hit my thumb with a needle - nothing happens - but if I hit the thumb 1000 times in a fast row - my thumb will disappear.)

With help of observations - you must by your self decide if and when you should move the fish and use ttm.

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, this was very helpful indeed.

I agree - ich was in the display, and did not come in on the powderblue tang. The tang is eating voraciously, pellets, frozen and nori. She doesn't appear to have lost any weight - she looks pretty good in the evenings, with just the slight "granular" appearance to her skin and some spots on her pectoral fins as evidence of her illness ... but in the mornings (for the last several days / couple of weeks) she tends to look worse. She's got good weight on, no indication of malnutrition at all, and is wearing all of her colors at full strength. The other residents of the tank - including a chocolate tang - don't appear to show any symptoms.

I've tried TTM once - and lost every fish. I have nothing but respect for those who can pull it off, but If I have to pull these guys, it'll be into a copper QT; there's no way I could TTM the entire contents of a 225 gallon tank.

Thank you to everyone who responded, and to all who've engaged in respectful debate. There's gotta be a better way . . .

~Bruce

 

[Lasse]

Lasse, what is that pink thing on your head?

Its a tiara - I wear it with pride to honor all people


@Maritimer
If you use TTM - only do it with the tang (or fish that have indications of ich). Not with the others without indications. I do it with two 10 L buckets, two circulation pumps.

I prepare 2 bucket with 50% new mixed and one with 50% DT saltwater. Put a pump in each. Day 1 - put in the fish in bucket 1. Day 2 move it to bucket 2, Rinse bucket 1 with tap water - prepare a new 5 L newly mixed and 5 L old tank water. Put something over the bucket (dark and in room temperature). Day 3 switch the fish again and redo bucket 2 ---- and so on for 7 - 8 days. Do not feed during the treatment period

If the others do not have any signs - you do not need to treat them - IMO - just the one with signs

I would hesitate to treat with copper again - it will lower the resistance again and you probably get it again when you put the fish back

The larvae hatch during early morning and it is not very surprising that it seems to be worse in the mornings. However compare at the same time and try to judge if it get worse or better day for day.

Indication = sign or symptoms of a disease.

Sincerely Lasse