Fish keep dying...

[A.Percula]

Hello,

Well, I've done research and I have not been able to resolve my issue yet. My tank is driving me crazy since I first set it up... This is not my first time in the hobby, but I took a 5 year break and had none of these issues before. First, here's my equipment: IM Fusion 40 (tank), Ghost Skimmer, Cobalt Heater, Hydrofill ATO system, 1 Vortech 10, and 2 AL Prime HD. It has been running for 3 months and 11 days. I did start with some rock and water from a matured tank. (none of the fish described below were added during the nitrogen cycle). I do use RODI water with 0 TDSs (measured with a portable meter). Reef Crystal is the salt I've been using since the begging. I also run Activated Carbon and dose NoPox to keep low levels of PO4 and Nitrates.

The issue is that most of the fish, snails, and few corals die after days of introduction (I do aclimate all my fish for 30 mins). I first started with a set of Anthias, that after introduction started to scratch against rocks and I took all fish (Anthias + clowns) to a QT tank for treatment. After 30ish day treatment of PraziPro and Copper, I returned them to the DT, and they went south again, returned them to QT, then back to DT and they are gone (they seem to do better in QT than in my DT).

I then started adding corals since I don't have luck with any fish, except with clowns... Soft and LPS seem happy, stony corals have a hard time. Parameters look fine and I've been recording them since the begging (see picture below). I track ammonia with the Seachem device and it's yellow (safe).

I recently tried to add more fish from different LFSs, a six line wrasse and a flame angel, they both died in less than 2 days.

Here's the behavior of the fish that die, they hide in the rocks (after acclimation) until I discover them eaten by hermits. They start to breathe very heavily until they water flow sends them to a corner. Other that are not shy and don't hide start scratching their gills against the rocks. I am desperate and I don't know what else to do. I've tried EVERYTHING in my power and budget. Based on how they breath and die, I am now suspecting that I may have low dissolved oxygen (even though I have a skimmer, vortech, and high surface movement), but probes are too expensive. I can't explain why my anemone is doing great and fish are dying.

I am almost at the point of sending my water to a lab to additional testing since I have no idea what could be wrong.

Please advise.

 

[Reeferdood]

Hello,
Magnesium looks a little low so I would bring that up to about 1400 ppm. How long have you been dosing no pox and how much are you dosing?
I feel no pox should be used in a bigger and older setup, it seems from what I have seen in some setups that premature carbon dosing tends to lead to unexplained issues like fish dying off.
Im sure others will take a swing at this one too.

 

[A.Percula]

Hello,
Magnesium looks a little low so I would bring that up to about 1400 ppm. How long have you been dosing no pox and how much are you dosing?
I feel no pox should be used in a bigger and older setup, it seems from what I have seen in some setups that premature carbon dosing tends to lead to unexplained issues like fish dying off.
Im sure others will take a swing at this one too.

I've been using NoPox for a month and a half. I do know that it may lower oxygen levels for a short period, but I thought it would not be an issue. I dose about 2.75 ml per day around 6pm. Lights go off at 9pm. I do notice the water gets a bit cloudy during nights (probably bacterial bloom), and this could have an impact, I just don't know how how much of an impact.

Yes, MG is a bit low and I will need to buy an additive since I am doing 5g water changes every 2 weeks and it's not adding enough. I was doing 5G every week, but I was told to switch to every two weeks to give time to the tank to settle down with algae and also to maintain parameters stable.

 

[Flippers4pups]

How do you acclimate? Drip or water transfer? If the SG isn't all that different in their bags and the SG of your system, 10-15min water transfer is all that's needed.

Ammonia builds quickly once the bag is open. Sometimes the LFS uses copper in their systems and people bring them home in this water and add Prime or amquel to the acclimation container to reduce the ammonia. Once the water conditioner hits the copper laiden water, it becomes instantly toxic. Damages gills and internal organs.

 

[Doclight]

Are you aerating the surface of the tank? Could be a lack of oxygenation.

 

[A.Percula]

How do you acclimate? Drip or water transfer? If the SG isn't all that different in their bags and the SG of your system, 10-15min water transfer is all that's needed.

Ammonia builds quickly once the bag is open. Sometimes the LFS uses copper in their systems and people bring them home in this water and add Prime or amquel to the acclimation container to reduce the ammonia. Once the water conditioner hits the copper laiden water, it becomes instantly toxic. Damages gills and internal organs.

It depends. My LFS is 10 minutes driving distance from home. I do not use drip method, I float bag for 10-15 minutes, test salinity and it's the same or .001-2 difference, I put it in the tank. If the difference is greater than that, I pour some water into the bag until salinity is the same (refractometer). For the ones I buy online, I do prepare a QT with 1.018. Get a sample from the bag without opening or introducing air (with a syringe) and test for salinity, pH, and temp, after I math these, I immediately transfer the fish to the QT tank.

 

[A.Percula]

Are you aerating the surface of the tank? Could be a lack of oxygenation.

The return pump moves the surface and the Vortech also agitates it, the back of the tank (this is a all in one setup) also have ups and down for water movement. I just can't explain what's happening. I think I need to know how to test for dissolved oxygen.

 

[Maritimer]

You ought to have plenty of oxygen, given the surface movement you describe, a low bioload, and the presence of a skimmer.

When you had the initial trouble with the anthias, did you keep them out of the tank for six weeks / 76 days, or only for the 30 days of copper treatment? Brooklynella and velvet will starve out in a tank with no fish, but only over a period of six weeks - ich takes longer, at 76 days, but can be starved out as well.

Here's an excellent bit of reading on what we call "fallow periods": https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/#post-2183025

~Bruce

 

[JoshKReef]

You ought to have plenty of oxygen, given the surface movement you describe, a low bioload, and the presence of a skimmer.

When you had the initial trouble with the anthias, did you keep them out of the tank for six weeks / 76 days, or only for the 30 days of copper treatment? Brooklynella and velvet will starve out in a tank with no fish, but only over a period of six weeks - ich takes longer, at 76 days, but can be starved out as well.

Here's an excellent bit of reading on what we call "fallow periods": https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/#post-2183025

~Bruce

I agree with this, you didn't let the parasites in the tank starve to death while you QT'd the fish, then you just reintroduced them to the parasites. You need to go fallow for 76 days. On day 30 is when you should buy your first set of fish, and run them through QT so they are ready on day 76. I said 30 because of an observation period after, but you could get away with getting fish on day 46 if you skip that (which I don't recommend).

 

[RichtheReefer21]

Sounds like velvet with how fast they are dying, or you are so infested with flukes or something that they all go for the 1 or 2 fish you put in at the same time and its over in the blink of an eye...

 

[A.Percula]

I just want to say I have 2 clown fish that did not die or don't show any signs of illness at all. That's why I was inclined to oxygen deprivation

 

[RichtheReefer21]

I just want to say I have 2 clown fish that did not die or don't show any signs of illness at all. That's why I was inclined to oxygen deprivation

clowns are from the damsel family...

aka... cockroaches of the sea.

one of the toughest fish to kill. which is why they are such great starter fish.

 

[KMench]

I would have to agree with @Maritimer and @Josh Kraft. If you keep having problems, maybe try going fallow for 76 days. It’s frustrating, and feels like a long time, but would rule out any chances of your tank having ich or velvet which could be the cause of your problems.

 

[cmcoker]

They are probably oxygen deprived by the parasites in their gills.

Clowns are pretty resilient and have a thick mucous coat, just because they are surviving would not rule out disease for me.

Agree with above posters, I would fallow 76 days and qt with copper and prazi

Edit to add, if these are the original clowns, that had multiple exposure then treatment they could have built an immunity to whatever it is. This would allow subsequent fish additions to be exposed because the parasite is still there

 

[beaslbob]

Hello,
...

and dose NoPox to keep low levels of PO4 and Nitrates.

...

.

Baring some kind of toxin you may have accidentally introduced, to me it kinda sounds like you've hit a bioload limit for the tank.

I would stop dosing nopox and add macro algaes in a refugium. even just s simple egg crate tank partition so a small area is the macro area and the rest is for the fish. Some added side lights to help the macros thrive.

This will consume ammonia first then nitrates, plus phosphagtes and co2 while returning fish food and oxygen.

After a week or so then try adding a male molly or two. Once the mollies live for a few weeks, the tank sould be ready for marine only fish.


my .02

 

[Robink]

I agree with @Maritimer and @Josh Kraft , you introduced a parasite or disease to your tank. I would put the clowns in qt and treat them anyway even though they show no signs, they could be carriers. Leave the tank fallow for the 76 days and then put them back in dt. Then qt any new fish for minimum of 30 days, you can use tank transfer method or use copper so you don't introduce any parasites or disease.
I know it's difficult to look at a fishless tank, all the more reason to qt all new additions.

 

[Mattyice008]

On a side note..what program is that you're using? For recording test results

 

[beaslbob]

Just an idea. Instead of 76 days of fallow, I would just tear it all down, treat it with a bleach and rinse several times. Then restart the tank.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

A few things I nee that's going on here. First the rubbing on rocks is signs of parasites. Typically ICH or Flukes will cause this but do not rule out velvet. All new fish should be placed into a QT tank that's cycled and treated with something like cuprimine as soon as they are placed in there. You want to leave them in here for at least 10 days and are closely monitored, with the copper level within the treatment range. I usually run a little closer to .25 than the recommended .50 copper. It't not as hard on the fish, allows for some wiggle room and will still kill the ICH and Velvet larvae when they are in the free swim states. This being after they drop off the fish and after hatching from the egg stage and are looking for a host. If you do not see any signs of the parasites within 10 days you chances are much higher than your fish are parasite free. If they were not you would have seen the visible signs during the fist 10 days due to their rapid life cycles. Now if they show signs within the first 10 days, then you want to add another 10 days of full treatment from the date of onset. This is to ensure that you are killing the parasites in the water column. For the main display tank, leave it fallow for 76 days as recommended as this will starve the parasites and they will die off rendering the tank clean.

All new corals and inverts should also go into a copper free QT for at least 2 weeks to ensure they are also parasite free. While they are immune to ICH and Velvet, that doesn't mean there are not eggs attached to them when you put them in your tank.

Simple steps like these can ensure that your main tank will remain parasite free and all your tank inhabitants are happy and healthy.

When dosing NoPox you MUST MUST MUST run the skimmer 24/7. NoPox can and will deplete the O2 levels in your tank. Skimming not only increases the O2 concentration in the water, but it also is integral to the removal of the nitrates and phosphates as the bacteria that are feeding on them die off.

 

[jelazar]

Velvet (and brook) doesn't always present with white spots on the body. I've personally seen fish die from confirmed velvet with absolutely no spots visible. But they did show all the characteristic behavioral symptoms: flashing/scratching, hiding, swimming into high-flow areas, lethargy, and rapid death.

As others have stated, the solution is to remove all the fish and treat them; and, you need to leave your tank fish-free for 6 weeks. You have to do both of these. It won't work to treat your fish and return them to the tank after 30 days. They'll just get sick again.

Six weeks is the fallow period for velvet and brook. This is the minimum you must do.
76 days is the fallow period for ich. It's unlikely that ich is killing your fish, but it's likely that ich is still present. It's up to you whether you go fallow for the full 76 days or not.

Good luck!