Fish Keep Dying

[Rifken]

Is Instant Ocean BIO-Spira good stuff? The instructions say to add the whole bottle for tanks up to 30 gallons. Does say what to do for larger tanks. Sounds like a stupid question but would I need to add four bottles for my 125? I'm just trying to not assume anything here.

-Bob

 

[azob_88]

Bob,

I agree that this could be disease related. However, I also think the environment is not ideal. I know some people have success with cannister filters, but I believe the filter media has to be changed or cleaned pretty often. As in, once a week or more. I personally do not have experience with using them so I can't offer much more.

What I'm thinking is that you have essentially two "waste traps" if you will. The first is your under-gravel filter. You are pulling waste from your water column into your substrate for it to be trapped. I know you are vacuuming the substrate, but I'm assuming this is when you were doing water changes every 3-4 weeks.

The second "waste trap" would be the cannister filter. Again, depending on how often the filter media is cleaned and/or changed, you may just be running water through this decaying waste that isn't actually leaving your system.

I would start by reversing the flow of your under-gravel filter. You don't want too fast of flow though, somewhere around 150gph or a little below through each filter plate. I would also, remove the cannister filter and replace it with a protein skimmer. I'd save the cannister filter though and use it when you vacuum the substrate if you can get it to work for that.

Your tank water will probably look stagnant after this, so I'd throw in a cheap powerhead or two from amazon to keep the water moving. This will also help with waste and detritus from settling on the substrate.

You can use biospira, microbacter 7, fritz, or Dr Tims for some bacterial filtration. Or some of each. There are plenty of other options though so that list is not exhaustive.

I'm still skeptical of your well water too. If you can, look at adding a RO/DI unit just for your fish tank water. RO Buddy on amazon has some more affordable options that work well.

With the new rock, you're going to have a lot of cyano blooms down the road, so be prepared for that. You might want to try the other steps before you take out all of your old rock to replace it.

 

[C4ctus99]

I am currently running a reverse undergravel filter on a 75 gallon tank. Several people have mentioned Paul B already, whenever he talks about his tank, which has had a RUGF for 50+ years now, he says that in the beginning he ran it regular and the tank would crash every few months, similar to yours. I would recommend getting a couple power heads and plumbing them into the UGF backwards to get flow going. He also says to keep it slow, he has 150g/tube on his 125, so you’d probably be good with 100-150 per tube

A few pictures of my temporary setup from when I was getting a sump in place below. Also would add seachem stability to the list of useable bacteria, I have not heard it mentioned much on here but have used it twice without issues, one was a dry rock and fish startup.

 

[C4ctus99]

Also search RUFG or reverse undergravel filter on this forum for more info

 

[brandon429]

notice this thread is a mix of cycle assessments/not cycled + disease as the 2 main guessed causatives

cycling implications have some neat rules already in place to rule that aspect in or out

are these fish lasting longer or less than a week before dying? no fish at all live a week, fed daily at the rate these large ones require, in an uncycled tank.

if they're dying in 1-2 days over and over after addition there could be a lack of a cycle, but as I read he gets cyano/diatoms growths and that's visual benthic indicator proof of cycling alongside his fishman whose troubleshooting skills while debatable should at least be able to discern if he's dealing in a cycled tank or not.

being able to absolutely eliminate cycling as an issue stops red herring chases.

 

[azob_88]

notice this thread is a mix of cycle assessments/not cycled + disease as the 2 main guessed causatives

cycling implications have some neat rules already in place to rule that aspect in or out

are these fish lasting longer or less than a week before dying? no fish at all live a week, fed daily at the rate these large ones require, in an uncycled tank.

if they're dying in 1-2 days over and over after addition there could be a lack of a cycle, but as I read he gets cyano/diatoms growths and that's visual benthic indicator proof of cycling alongside his fishman whose troubleshooting skills while debatable should at least be able to discern if he's dealing in a cycled tank or not.

being able to absolutely eliminate cycling as an issue stops red herring chases.

These are good points, and I apologize, when I read disease I assume viral or parasitic. But, that isn't always necessarily the case. I also don't think this is cycle related. I'm saying some bottled bac isn't a bad option because it won't hurt anything. Will it help? Maybe, maybe not. But, it is an easy, pretty much risk free step to add bio-diversity to the tank.

Some of my input has been based on your rip clean thread ideas regarding waste removal, which I think is a realistic starting point on helping this tank. Based on what we know, and fish husbandry thus far, I'm making an assumption that OP isn't going to want to go fallow while there are still living creatures in the tank. I'm also trying to meet OP where he's at currently. Yeah, perhaps some more research could and should have been done initially. But, you don't know what you don't know. And if you have some guy who can smell test the water, of course you think he might know what he's talking about. haha

Anyways, Bob, there are options. Hopefully we can provide you with something that not only works but also works for you personally.

This book is free on Kindle:

 

[azob_88]

These are good points, and I apologize, when I read disease I assume viral or parasitic. But, that isn't always necessarily the case. I also don't think this is cycle related. I'm saying some bottled bac isn't a bad option because it won't hurt anything. Will it help? Maybe, maybe not. But, it is an easy, pretty much risk free step to add bio-diversity to the tank.

Some of my input has been based on your rip clean thread ideas regarding waste removal, which I think is a realistic starting point on helping this tank. Based on what we know, and fish husbandry thus far, I'm making an assumption that OP isn't going to want to go fallow while there are still living creatures in the tank. I'm also trying to meet OP where he's at currently. Yeah, perhaps some more research could and should have been done initially. But, you don't know what you don't know. And if you have some guy who can smell test the water, of course you think he might know what he's talking about. haha

Anyways, Bob, there are options. Hopefully we can provide you with something that not only works but also works for you personally.

This book is free on Kindle:

Link didn't post it looks like... It's titled:

The Avant-Garde Marine Aquarist: A 60-Year history of Fish Keeping​

 

[Rifken]

I'll try my best to get this timeline right

Jan 22 Clown trigger and Snowflake put in new 65 gallon tank

Sep 22 Clown Trigger and Snowflake (and everything else from the 65 except rocks) moved to 125 gallon tank

Oct 22 Added Undulated Trigger

Nov 22 Undulated died. Clown and Snowflake doing great. Tank seemed good

Nov 22 A few weeks later added a Niger. He lived about four or five days. Clown and Snowflake doing great

Dec 22 Mid -month Dec tank seemed good, Clown and Snowflake doing great. Added a Blue Throat trigger

Jan 23 End of January, Blue Throat hiding. Clown Trigger and Snowflake seem "off". Test water and nitrate is at the highest reading. Take fish to fish store after hours hoping to save them while getting my tank squared away. A few days later the Clown died. The Blue Throat went blind, stopped eating and passed a week afterwards. Frosty the eel survived

Feb 23 Removed volcanic rocks from tank and did 70 percent water change as recommended by fish guy. Put in lace rocks that were in the 65 gallon setup. let tank sit for three days then added 2 damsels that I had previousely returned to fish store because they were beating up the Banggai Cardinals in my other saltwater tank. Two weeks later I put Frosty the eel back in

15 April We add the Valentini Puffer in. Seems to be good. Damsels gave him some grief initially but they settled down. He was eating and acting normal.

24 April Found Valentini dead in the morning. He was acting completely normal and eating on the 23rd. Damsels and eel still doing thier thing acting completely normal

I should say that I tested the water every time before we added any fish and every time one died. I kept getting the same results of 0 amm, 0 nitrite and 50 to 100 nitrate (except that on time in January). I had an API test kit and I started to doubt the results so I had fish guy test the water with his kit and he got a slightly lower reading. I bought test strips after that and use the API as a back up test now.

So I guess if you go with just time in the 125 gallon here you are

Deaths
Clown Trigger 5 Months
Undulated Trigger around 4 to 5 weeks
Niger Trigger 4 to 5 days
Blue Throat Trigger 5 to 6 weeks
Valentini Puffer 3 days

Survivors
Snowflake 8 months
Damsels 3 months

Of the deaths, none had any noticeable parasites or damage to their bodies. The only one that showed any type of sign (other than hiding in the cave/crevasses) was the Blue Throat not being able to see.

-Bob

 

[Cell]

So the LFS guy you pay to maintain the tank but doesn't test, only sniffs, doesn't know why your fish keep dieing but is happy to keep selling you more?

 

[C4ctus99]

A couple of questions that came to mind:
What kind of rocks have you had?
What kind of substrate?
Have you done an ICP?
Is it possible something has been leaching out (chemical/heavy metal) and poisoning the fish?
Could the eel be killing things?

an observation: everything seems to be dying either inside 1 week or right around 4-6 weeks AFTER getting put in the 125. @Jay Hemdal are there any disease that have a 1 month timeline? Alternatively any poisons that would take that long to kill the fish?

 

[C4ctus99]

Also, sounds like your fish guy may know fresh water, but maybe doesn’t know about saltwater (I.e. nitrites are poisonous, UGF “works”, etc)

 

[Atherial]

Honestly, I would start over. I don't see the point of trying to get an undergravel filter to work when that's not what we use now. Have you watched any of the BRS videos? They're a good place to start and will let you know why we're all saying that your fish guy doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[Rifken]

I went to the water store today planning to get 20 gallons of water for a water change. I also brought a sample of the water from the whole house RO system we have installed.

2 years ago we had a new well dug becuase the metal casing was causing problems. That well was 300 feet deep and water had 35 grains of hardness. A softener took care of our needs

They only went 130 feet on the new well and the water is 200 grains of hardness. That was destroying everything and no water softener would touch it so we ended up spending well over 6 grand on a system to make the water usable. The system is rated for up to 2400 gallons per day. I actually get between 200 to 250 depending on how new the filters and membranes are.

So anyway, today's results... 70 grains of hardness and I had them test the TDS. The TDS was 2100ppm.

I've got a feeling on my gut that this is not good. What is a "good range"?

-Bob

 

[TokenReefer]

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Post in thread 'Snowflake eel is in rough shape' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/snowflake-eel-is-in-rough-shape.914294/post-10251460

 

[Paul B]

I am sorry but there are so many factors here and none of them are good.
I feel there is way to much (big) livestock in such a new tank with such a small amount of rock. It's the surface of the rocks (and gravel) that hold the bacteria that filters or cleans the water and converts ammonia, nitrite and eventually nitrate.

You hosed off the rock to eliminate cyano. Big no no. Leave the rocks alone and embrace the cyano as it is normal and natural. I still have it and my tank was set up when Nixon was President. He was after Lincoln. Fresh water has no place in a salt tank.

I realize your tank tested zero for ammonia. That is because ammonia is constantly being processed into nitrite, but in your case, not fast enough. By the time you test it, it is gone.

Cycling only means the tank has the capacity to convert wastes from whatever you added to cycle the tank be it a dead shrimp or can of cat food. Adding bottled bacteria IMO is useless but I am still on the fence with that.

Your moray eel didn't die because moray eels are very hard to kill. They can live on damp sand for days so don't need to much clean water and they can take some oxygen from the air. In the tropics, you can see them slithering all over the rocks in search for crabs.

As some said, a regular UG filter as you have it set up won't work long in a salt tank. But your tank is to new now to have a problem with that. You will have a problem in probably less than a year with it unless you reverse the flow and run it very slow. About 150 GPH down each tube.

I feel you also have to much gravel in there for a UG filter. A little less would be fine, if reversed.

Remove any filter material in your canister filter and if you like put large rocks in it just for bacteria. Don't clean it. Don't clean your rocks or gravel no matter what grows on it. That growth you see is life and it is whats needed in your tank.

Wait at least a year before adding moray eels, large triggerfish, lionfish or any large predators that make much more wastes than your young tank can handle.

Good Luck.

Here is a picture of a moray eel I took off an outer Island in Hawaii. Notice the growth around him. That is actually a good and healthy thing but you will hear other wise on many of these forums. Of course we don't want so much growth that they cover our corals and look horrible. But a coating on the rocks means health

 

[Cell]

2100 TDS after RO?! That doesn't make sense.

 

[Rmckoy]

imagine what information he could gather if he also tasted it…

When I first started reefing . I had a friend that never used a hydrometer and said he mixed water by taste .

 

[brandon429]

The ugf is likely the strongest source of flow across surface area in this entire setup= the biofilter

A non ugf sandbed only makes water contact via random eddy currents on the ground plane only of the sand, inefficient

But a rugf OR a ugf via laminar current directly moves water across the full presentation of sand = high efficiency

Given this isn't reef rock so it's not as porous or as high surface area, that extra biofilter unintended boost is potentially the swing vote in him controlling ammonia from big fish and feed

 

[Nemo&Friends]

I agree with Paul B. You need more rocks both for the filtration and the hiding places. Hiding places help against stress. Stress kills fish.

 

[j.falk]

This thread is like a train wreck. I keep coming back to it to see the updates.

My main concern with this tank would be the well water. Who knows what is in it and whether it is lethal to the fish or not? If the water is bad....then no matter what you do, you will keep having the problems over and over. Water is everything to aquatic life. It is essential to the health of the aquarium and inhabitants that the water be good to use. That should be step number one. You absolutely have to have a good water source to have a successful aquarium.

I would also recommend that OP does not let anyone else work on the tank ever again. Learn to do it yourself and learn to do it the right way. Educating yourself on how to set up and properly maintain a saltwater aquarium will go a long ways towards having success with this tank. Relying on other people to take care of it/solve problems for you is just setting yourself up for failure. You do not know 100% whether the person you are dealing with knows what they are doing. Learn to do it yourself.

That being said, there are many ways to set up a saltwater aquarium...things have progressed quite a bit in recent years. The way the tank is set up now is old school. I haven't seen anyone set up a tank this way in years (sorry Paul! ). The people who still set tanks up this way are the ones who have been keeping tanks since the 70s/80s/90s...old school people who refuse to change because what they do still works for them and it's what they know. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I do believe there are easier ways of setting things up that make sense once you really take some time to think things through.

The days of bleaching rocks and siphoning sand to keep everything looking pristine and clean are over. That's old school thinking and it's not a good habit. The stuff you are removing from your rock and sand are things that (although unsightly) can be of great benefit to the overall health of your aquarium. Algae is a plant...it uses the nutrients that are building up in the water from the fish waste and leftover food particles to grow...it is a natural filtration method and removing it is counterintuitive to the overall health of your tank. There are good algaes and bad algaes...again, education is key. The more you know the better decisions you can make going forward.