Fish mortality high in cycled reef tank

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

After have a dramatic tank crash in 2017, I have recently restarted my reef tank, starting from dry rock which I cured. This process began as far back as Nov. 2017, with sand going into the tank in Dec 2017 rock going into the tank March 2018 after curing for about 3 months, then introducing fish July 21st after seeing no ammonia and nitrates begin to build - a clown and 2 bangled cardinal fish. I also added 3 snails and two hermit crabs. At this point in time, I was only running the protein skimmer and GFO reactor (no filter materials or activated carbon). Also, diatoms were lightly covering rocks and the sandbed. One of the bangled cardinal fish died the same week, the second cardinal and two snails died the week following, the clown then died the third week. I thought the tank may not have cycled or was going thru spikes, but never registered ammonia or nitrates in any of my tests. We introduced a new fish, a talbots damsel. At the same time I put a Seachem Ammonia alert into the main tank, filter sock and floss, and activated carbon. I also added Seachem Prime and Stability at the time of adding the fish. The fish almost immediately began to show redness in the gills. The fish is still alive after 2 weeks, but I am concerned to add anything else and the gills still appear red. Also to note, red cynobacteria did appear the week we introduced the damsel. I have done weekly 10% water changes to keep the cyno in check. The cyno seems to be subsiding and I am starting to see numerous coralline algae dots on the lower rocks and shaded regions. I will likely be changing out the GFO to reduce phosphates further which likely take care of the cyno. I am struggling with CO2 dropping my pH to very low levels. I have started running a CO2 scrubber, but the improvement may short lived at about 9 days with the pH dropping to 7.6 yesterday (pH range without scrubber 7.6-7.8, with scrubber 7.8-8.1).

Tank specs:
90 gallon + 40 gallon sump (with refugium)
GFO reactor
Protein Skimmer
APEX controller
Filter Bagged Activated Carbon
Filter Floss
Filter Socks

Cycled dry rock - 100lbs
Live sand - 50lbs

Tank Parameters over the past month
Calcium - Ranging between 380 and 425 ppm; currently 425 ppm
Alkalinity - Ranging between 7.0 and 9 dKH; currently 7.5 but just dosed Seachem Fusion 2 to raise it to 9 dKH
Magnesium - Ranging between 1185 to 1350 ppm; currently 1350 ppm
Phosphate - Ranging between .1 to .15 ppm; currently .15 ppm
Silicates - 0 ppm
Salinity - Ranging 1.025-1.026; currently 1.025
Temp. - 78-80F currently 78.7F
pH - 7.6 - 8.11; currently 7.89

My greatest concern at the moment continues to be with the redness of the gills. I have been trying to figure this out, even checking for stray voltage which I am not seeing anything on my voltage meter. The lfs seems to think it is a parasite that is persisting in the tank from the previous fish. I do not want to medicate the tank and disrupt the coralline growth and I do not want to lose the fish either. The two crabs are still living, but not active and appear to be shedding. The remaining snail dropped from the glass about the same time my pH suddenly dropped to 7.6. Currently stumped on the fish and pH swings. Would love some suggestions.

PDR · Sep 4, 2018

Welcome to R2R! Sorry to hear you are having these issues. It sure sounds like ammonia poisoning to me. Hopefully #reefsquad can help out!

Crabs McJones · Sep 4, 2018

Welcome to R2R!

#WelcometoR2R
What about the parameters of your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate?

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Thanks, I have been reading the R2R forums for several years, great place to gather information. Ammonia is what I would expect as well. I have tested ammonia and nitrate twice a week until last week (test kits finally ran out) and had my lfs also test, nothing detected. Using Salifert test kits, usually pretty reliable. Also, lfs validated my readings. I am hoping someone has an idea as well!

lapin · Sep 4, 2018

Where did you get the carbon? Amazon?

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Ammonia and nitrates have been testing zero since early June. Nitrate is at zero currently and has been since the start of August, was a bit higher in early July at about .5ppm when I first introduced the fish.

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Activated carbon is BRS Premium ROX 0.8 and GFO is Rowa Phos, believe these were both purchased at BRS. I sometimes use Marine Depot as well.

GoVols · Sep 4, 2018

Popcorndog said:
Activated carbon is BRS Premium ROX 0.8 and GFO is Rowa Phos, believe these were both purchased at BRS. I sometimes use Marine Depot as well.

Welcome to Reef 2 Reef!!

FWIW
GFO will not help with cyano. GFO is for phosphates. Low nitrates kicks in cyano, to me.

It looks like you have a lot of (aggressive) things going on and I'd just go back to the basics.

I don't run one, but a quarantine tank is really the right way to go too.

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Some additional notes:

I use RO/DI water and tds meter is showing 2. I auto-top off with just RO/DI water.

The history for this tank has been rough. The crash which occurred last year was due to a bad batch of salt, which was noticed to late. I had did a water change with new salt I recently purchased. I did not take any parameter reads initially and eventually did all my normal water testing a week and half to two weeks later. The magnesium was testing above the testing limits of the test kit. Called my lfs. We took some salt and mixed it up, he had the same result. Under advice from the lfs, I did a significant water change with a new salt (he replaced the bad product). At that point, all the corals were on the way out and within a week I had lost the majority of the corals (except mushrooms and zoas). Then the tank went into a major bacteria bloom that killed all the fish, shrimp, craps, snails, etc.... This was followed by a mass of green hair algae. That is when I finally gave up on it and decided to start over. I removed everything from the tank and then cleaned the tank/sump out with vinegar and water. I did not replace the pipes or clean the return chamber of the tank. I bought dry rock from BRS, cleaned it, bleached it using about a 2.5% solution standard bleach to water, used Seachem Prime to remove any remaining chlorines, and cured it for several months. Added new salt water (Red Sea Coral Pro) and sand while I waited on the rock.

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

GoVols said:
Welcome to Reef 2 Reef!!

FWIW
GFO will not help with cyano. GFO is for phosphates. Low nitrates kicks in cyano, to me.

It looks like you have a lot of (aggressive) things going on and I'd just go back to the basics.

I don't run one, but a quarantine tank is really the right way to go too.

I could quarantine the damsel, but there is really nothing in the tank but the damsel at the moment. Only reason I would set up the quarantine tank is to administer cupramine. I would then need to leave the fish in the quarantine tank for a couple months while the main tank works through any parasite cycle. My lfs adviced to dose cupramine to the main tank. Not something I want to do, as I am just seeing good progress with coralline growth.

saltyhog · Sep 4, 2018

In my experience Salifert can markedly underestimate ammonia. Try checking it with a different brand kit if you can. Fish and inverts dying plus red gills sure sounds like ammonia to me.

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Things I have been chasing/doing:

Stabilizing the pH as the pH is dropping to low levels at night. From what I have read, low pH is bad for coralline growth. pH can drop due to ammonia, but ammonia becomes less toxic at a lower pH. Regardless, have tested for ammonia and have not detected any since fish were introduced. I have tested the water to see if my house CO2 levels are elevated and they are. Hence, the CO2 scrubber. But I was a bit shocked to see the pH drop to 7.6 last night, with the scrubber in place.
I have suspected heavy metals could have been in the bad salt and stuck in the piping and return of the tank. I have been dosing prime and stability with every water change in hopes of binding any heavy metals. I have completed about 4 water changes to date. About every two weeks.

I have been dosing magnesium, calcium, and alkalinity once per week as needed to keep the water parameters ideal for coralline growth. I use Fusion 1 for calcium, Fushion 2 for alkalinity, and BRS non-pharma grade magnesium salts (sulfate + chloride). I am really trying to get the coralline growth on the rocks going and keep the undesirable algae suppressed.

I was not happy with the Red Sea salt. It always left a white residue that floated on the surface after mixing. I ran out of the Red Sea Coral Pro salt and changed to Seachem Aquavitro Salinity. I am not sure I care much for this salt either, but intend to stick with it for the time being. I notice a strange sulfur smell every time I mix it.

I have added chaeto to the refugium, although it is not really doing much based on the low nitrate load in the tank.

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Which test kit is considered the best with respect to Ammonia? Happy to pick one up and check it again. My lfs used API and did not detect anything on the two occasions I had them test (before purchasing fish I always have the lfs run a test for me).

HotRocks · Sep 4, 2018

Welcome to R2R!

I would advise against dosing copper in your display. It sounds like prior to the crash you were not Fully cycled. Sounds like that still may be the issue. Have you considered any type of bacteria in a bottle to help kickstart the cycle?

Redness of the gills would typically be ammonia burn. You really need an accurate test for ammonia to be sure this is not the issue.

Does your fish have any white spots or specs on it if you look closely? Cupramine will only effectively treat ich/velvet. So if you are dealing with something else like uronema, flukes, brook etc. it may not be the correct treatment method.

DMG Reef · Sep 4, 2018

You stated that your TDS meter is showing 2 TDS. Maybe something is getting through that's harming your fish. Chloramines? My TDS is always zero.

lapin · Sep 4, 2018

Popcorndog said:
Activated carbon is BRS Premium ROX 0.8 and GFO is Rowa Phos, believe these were both purchased at BRS. I sometimes use Marine Depot as well.

Ok no worries then. On another thread someone had fish die and the only thing they did new was get carbon off amazon.
Could the large raise in Alk from 7.5 to 9 cause the fish to be stressed. When I raised Alk I did it in .5 doses over a weeks time to get it up from 7.3 to 8.8. Not sure what is a safe jump.

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Agreed, I would NOT put cupramine into my main tank. I have not seen any ich or other external signs on the fishes skin. The fish had been coming out each day and feeding well on mysis. The fish also appears to be breathing normally. This damsel has had a tendency to hide most of the time, which seems unusual to me for a damsel. Never owned a talbot damsel before now, was told by lfs that they are not as aggressive (which I do not believe). My intent was to capture and return the damsel once my tank is fully stabilized and has good coralline coverage. I just wanted something in the tank to keep the bio-system running.

I have been dosing both Seachem Stability, 4.5 capfuls, per the bottle instructions once per week since adding the damsel. I have also dosed Seachem Prime, 2 capfuls, with every water change which has been bi-weekly. The stability should be keeping any ammonia at bay while the prime would eliminate the potential for chloramine and chlorine.

I dosed 50ml of Fusion 2 (Alkalinity) today. It did not exceed the limits indicated on the Seachem instructions. I generally calculate dosing based on a 100 gallon tank. 90 gallon tank + 40 gallon sump - rock, sand, and unused portion of sump.

Popcorndog · Sep 4, 2018

Note, today, after a 10% water change yesterday and dosing of fusion 2 today, the damsel remained hiding and did not come out. I saw him earlier in the afternoon inside a rock, but have not seen him this evening.

I think you may be onto something with Uronema. Looking at photos on the internet, the red coloration is in the gill area, although the color looks to be more internal than external. The fish does not appear to have lost much color - light yellow, light purple, blackish dot. No mucus on the fish. Was breathing normally earlier today. I did not see anything attached to the fishes skin under close observation a week ago. If he comes out tomorrow, I will try to take a picture.