Fish ordered online: Full acclimation or simple float and dump?

[Zionas]

For fish (and corals and inverts) ordered online and having it shipped back to you, is it better to do a full temperature (or even drip acclimation) acclimation, or is it better to just float for 15 minutes then dump? I’m asking because some of the livestock I want is hard / nearly impossible to find at my LFS so I’ll have to rely on the Internet for a few of my fish and inverts (especially the Tiger Pistol Shrimp for my YWG). Since the ammonia buildup is harmful for any creature, would it be better to just float and then put the animal in my tank right away without a full acclimation? Thanks.

 

[rubertoe93]

I wouldn’t suggest it at all... float them for 10 mins and then acclimatise them for 30, you don’t want other people’s water in your tank,

 

[Spieg]

I don't mail order much livestock, but have always done temp acclimation (float the bags 15-20 minutes)), then drip acclimate for 30-60 minutes before netting fish and giving a dip in safety stop then adding them to tank (quarantine tank for 30 days of observation or treatment if needed before they go to the main tank).

 

[rubertoe93]

Yeah I think that’s the best way personally, you don’t want to risk shocking them to much, especially if they have travelled a long way

 

[Dan_P]

For fish (and corals and inverts) ordered online and having it shipped back to you, is it better to do a full temperature (or even drip acclimation) acclimation, or is it better to just float for 15 minutes then dump? I’m asking because some of the livestock I want is hard / nearly impossible to find at my LFS so I’ll have to rely on the Internet for a few of my fish and inverts (especially the Tiger Pistol Shrimp for my YWG). Since the ammonia buildup is harmful for any creature, would it be better to just float and then put the animal in my tank right away without a full acclimation? Thanks.

Drip acclimation over 2-3 hours.

The acclimation time is important for reducing harm to your creatures. Avoid rushing it.

 

[Lasse]

For fish (and corals and inverts) ordered online and having it shipped back to you, is it better to do a full temperature (or even drip acclimation) acclimation, or is it better to just float for 15 minutes then dump? I’m asking because some of the livestock I want is hard / nearly impossible to find at my LFS so I’ll have to rely on the Internet for a few of my fish and inverts (especially the Tiger Pistol Shrimp for my YWG). Since the ammonia buildup is harmful for any creature, would it be better to just float and then put the animal in my tank right away without a full acclimation? Thanks.

You really understand the problem here! With long transports - over 15 - 24 hours - there will be an ammonia build up in you bags but on the same time a build up of CO2 that will lower the pH. This is good because it transfer the ammonia into the non toxic form - NH4 or ammonium. However - if you treat this long transported bags the same as you do then you only have a transport of 2 -5 hours - it could be serve problems. You have a bag with high ammonia content and low pH (can be as low as 6.5) This means that you have ammonia in the untoxic form - but what happens when you slowly drip your perfect water with pH 8.3 inte this bag? Yes - the pH will rise but your total ammonia concentration will be the same - with higher pH - more of the toxic form (NH3 or ammoniac). If you are unlucky - the NH3 concentration will be to high and kill/harm your fishes. IMO - at long transport times - the drip acclimination can be deadly if it will be done the same way as in short transports. And it is a question of pH. My method with handling long transports is to prepare a bucket of saltwater from my tank to a low pH (around 7). That preparation can be done by adding a very small amount of CO2 into the bucket. Normally you do not have CO2 flask at home but att least here in Sweden is very common with Soda Stream equipments that can do carbonated water from your tap water. I use to do some carbonated water and pull in a small (read small) amount of carbonated water into my bucket. I check the pH with my pH probe - at pH 7 - I do not add any more carbonated water. (if you do not have any Soda Streamers in your household - it works with most types of natural carbonated water bottles) But be careful - it easy to get too low pH - its powerful. It is best to use a pH probe.

When the fish arrive - I open the bags and put the water and inhabitants in a bucket. In this moment DO NOT USE AERATION - it will rise the pH and convert NH4 into toxic NH3. Now I do an acclimation with help of my water with low pH. After half an hour - I take out 3/4 of the water in the bag and continue with adding low pH tank water. When it is mostly water from my DT in the bucket - I aerate and rise the pH in the bucket. After half an hour with aeration I just net the fish and place it in my refugium for a week or two (acclimation box in the DT works well too).

It has happens that I not could be able to do this type of acclimation at home. In these cases - I have only just take the fish out from the bag and put it in my refugium or acclimation tank.

It you have QT tanks - just lower the pH in these - move the fish from the bags into the QT tank and stop adding CO2 to the QT tank - let the pH slowly rise during the coming days.

I know that this way of acclimation not is common in the US - but IMO - when you have long transports - drip acclimation with saltwater with normal pH (8 - 8.4) can be deadly for your fish. Inverts - like pistolshrimps is normally not so sensitive because there is not so much of ammonia in their bags. A good tool to decide if you should use water with low pH in the acclimation process is to measure the pH in the bags when you get them - is it lower than around 7.2 - use a process with low pH for acclimation or just drop the fish directly inte the good water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Beau_B]

Maybe this is too simple, but would adding a conditioner (Prime) to the transport water immediately after opening the bag an option? Would that offer protection to allow a longer acclimation? I have yet to get fish mail ordered but might in the near future.

 

[Dan_P]

You really understand the problem here! With long transports - over 15 - 24 hours - there will be an ammonia build up in you bags but on the same time a build up of CO2 that will lower the pH. This is good because it transfer the ammonia into the non toxic form - NH4 or ammonium. However - if you treat this long transported bags the same as you do then you only have a transport of 2 -5 hours - it could be serve problems. You have a bag with high ammonia content and low pH (can be as low as 6.5) This means that you have ammonia in the untoxic form - but what happens when you slowly drip your perfect water with pH 8.3 inte this bag? Yes - the pH will rise but your total ammonia concentration will be the same - with higher pH - more of the toxic form (NH3 or ammoniac). If you are unlucky - the NH3 concentration will be to high and kill/harm your fishes. IMO - at long transport times - the drip acclimination can be deadly if it will be done the same way as in short transports. And it is a question of pH. My method with handling long transports is to prepare a bucket of saltwater from my tank to a low pH (around 7). That preparation can be done by adding a very small amount of CO2 into the bucket. Normally you do not have CO2 flask at home but att least here in Sweden is very common with Soda Stream equipments that can do carbonated water from your tap water. I use to do some carbonated water and pull in a small (read small) amount of carbonated water into my bucket. I check the pH with my pH probe - at pH 7 - I do not add any more carbonated water. (if you do not have any Soda Streamers in your household - it works with most types of natural carbonated water bottles) But be careful - it easy to get too low pH - its powerful. It is best to use a pH probe.

When the fish arrive - I open the bags and put the water and inhabitants in a bucket. In this moment DO NOT USE AERATION - it will rise the pH and convert NH4 into toxic NH3. Now I do an acclimation with help of my water with low pH. After half an hour - I take out 3/4 of the water in the bag and continue with adding low pH tank water. When it is mostly water from my DT in the bucket - I aerate and rise the pH in the bucket. After half an hour with aeration I just net the fish and place it in my refugium for a week or two (acclimation box in the DT works well too).

It has happens that I not could be able to do this type of acclimation at home. In these cases - I have only just take the fish out from the bag and put it in my refugium or acclimation tank.

It you have QT tanks - just lower the pH in these - move the fish from the bags into the QT tank and stop adding CO2 to the QT tank - let the pH slowly rise during the coming days.

I know that this way of acclimation not is common in the US - but IMO - when you have long transports - drip acclimation with saltwater with normal pH (8 - 8.4) can be deadly for your fish. Inverts - like pistolshrimps is normally not so sensitive because there is not so much of ammonia in their bags. A good tool to decide if you should use water with low pH in the acclimation process is to measure the pH in the bags when you get them - is it lower than around 7.2 - use a process with low pH for acclimation or just drop the fish directly inte the good water.

Sincerely Lasse

Good to know! Thanks Lasse.

 

[lion king]

While @Lasse way is by far the perfect way, there are some misconceptions about the ammonia rise after exposure to O2. Most bags if not all that are transported are filled with concentrated O2, this maintains normal O2 exchange for as long as 72 hours. I have tested this theory of ammonia rise and of all the samples I've tested, I never saw an ammonia rise.

It is very important that you match sg if your tank is higher than the bag, if they are going into a qt/observation you can always adjust the tank.

 

[Zionas]

Ahhh great so what’s the best method for you?

 

[AquaBiomics]

I don't think I've seen the number yet but in my experience most fish are shipped at an extremely low salinity, about 25 ppt.

This prompts many to do a drip acclimation, which is generally a good idea. But if the fish has been in the bag a long time, you can run into problems with ammonia from the pH change on opening the bag.

I lost a lot of fish when I did acclimation like I read on the internet. And almost every fish I bought, whether it survived or not, looked like it was hating life during acclimation.

Then one day I decided to do it differently. It worked so well its the only thing I've done since. Now my fish are not stressed at all during acclimation, and I lose far fewer of them.

I prepare a batch of diluted tank water (RODI + tank water) at about 25 ppt, and aerate the crap out of it.

I float the fish in sealed bags in that container, about 15 minutes, to match temps.

Then one by one, I cup open the bags and working quickly, immediately pour the fish out into a net and drop it into the tub of diluted tank water. The fish leave their nasty bag water behind, and immediately find themselves in clear, oxygenated water with the same temp and salinity as what they left behind.

Try it, and you'll notice an immediate difference in the fish. The fish *love* this treatment. Zero stress.

 

[lion king]

Ahhh great so what’s the best method for you?

My fish usually go into observation tanks so I test the sg in the bag then match the tank. I usually spend up to an hour doing water exchange, I don't drip acclimate. Known hardier fish I make cut it short but If the fish has a reputation for a poor acclimation; a rhino, fu manchu lion as examples, I'll spend as much as 2 hours of water exchange. This allows the ph and other elements to balance.

 

[lion king]

The ammonia rise and O2 exchange does rely on suppliers actually filling their bags with O2. With all the other misgivings I see in the hobby today, I'd check with the supplier to make sure they fill their bags with O2.

Back in the day, Just for simple curtesy and perhaps a bit of marketing, I've even been to high end lfs that ask if you would like O2 in the bag. They would ask if you were going to be delayed in acclimation they would fill your bag with O2 to give you more time.

 

[nereefpat]

It's not that ammonia is rising in the bag. The ammonia becomes more toxic as pH rises when the bag is opened and the water offgasses CO2.

 

[Lasse]

Maybe this is too simple, but would adding a conditioner (Prime) to the transport water immediately after opening the bag an option? Would that offer protection to allow a longer acclimation? I have yet to get fish mail ordered but might in the near future.

Have test this too - it works but IME - it not as safe as the CO2 method. I have done this when there was +300 bags to open and we did not have opportunity to lower the pH in individual receiving tanks

I don't think I've seen the number yet but in my experience most fish are shipped at an extremely low salinity, about 25 ppt.

This prompts many to do a drip acclimation, which is generally a good idea. But if the fish has been in the bag a long time, you can run into problems with ammonia from the pH change on opening the bag.

I lost a lot of fish when I did acclimation like I read on the internet. And almost every fish I bought, whether it survived or not, looked like it was hating life during acclimation.

Then one day I decided to do it differently. It worked so well its the only thing I've done since. Now my fish are not stressed at all during acclimation, and I lose far fewer of them.

I prepare a batch of diluted tank water (RODI + tank water) at about 25 ppt, and aerate the crap out of it.

I float the fish in sealed bags in that container, about 15 minutes, to match temps.

Then one by one, I cup open the bags and working quickly, immediately pour the fish out into a net and drop it into the tub of diluted tank water. The fish leave their nasty bag water behind, and immediately find themselves in clear, oxygenated water with the same temp and salinity as what they left behind.

Try it, and you'll notice an immediate difference in the fish. The fish *love* this treatment. Zero stress.

This is according to my experiences too - it is many times more safety to take out the fish and put it directly into the receiving tank - more safe than drip acclimation after a long transport. However - if there is a lot of ammonia in the bag - the blood of the fishes in the bag will hold a low pH and much ammonia. If you - in this situation put the fish directly into good water with high pH - you can get an internal toxic response and the fish will die. It has happens to me with Malawi Cichlids.

While @Lasse way is by far the perfect way, there are some misconceptions about the ammonia rise after exposure to O2. Most bags if not all that are transported are filled with concentrated O2, this maintains normal O2 exchange for as long as 72 hours. I have tested this theory of ammonia rise and of all the samples I've tested, I never saw an ammonia rise.

It is very important that you match sg if your tank is higher than the bag, if they are going into a qt/observation you can always adjust the tank.

The ammonia accumulation in the bags is no theory - it is simple that way. But you will normally not see any deadly ackumulation during short transports (<15 hours) but at long transport - it is there. This is a well-known fact among people (like me) that have been unpacking fishes imported from the other side of the world - transport lenght up to 72 hours

The ammonia rise and O2 exchange does rely on suppliers actually filling their bags with O2. With all the other misgivings I see in the hobby today, I'd check with the supplier to make sure they fill their bags with O2.

Back in the day, Just for simple curtesy and perhaps a bit of marketing, I've even been to high end lfs that ask if you would like O2 in the bag. They would ask if you were going to be delayed in acclimation they would fill your bag with O2 to give you more time.

There is no connection between oxygen levels or sources and ammonia concentrations as I know. It is to different and separate processes. Oxygen will be used in the respiration process (with CO2 as waste) and NH3/NH4 is the waste from the cellulare breakdown and reorganization of proteins and amino acids. Both the uptake of oxygen and the secretion of NH3/NH4 takes place in the gills but or both different and independent processes.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

It's not that ammonia is rising in the bag. The ammonia becomes more toxic as pH rises when the bag is opened and the water offgasses CO2.

Partly true - but the ammonia was not in the bag when the fish was packed - the fish has secreted NH3/NH4 during the transport - as long as CO2 in the bag is low - it is not toxic. If you degase the CO2 or mix with high pH water - the toxic part (NH3) will be higher.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[S.Pepper]

Maybe this is too simple, but would adding a conditioner (Prime) to the transport water immediately after opening the bag an option? Would that offer protection to allow a longer acclimation? I have yet to get fish mail ordered but might in the near future.

That will work as long as there is no copper in the water. Prime + copper is very toxic.

 

[Dan_P]

While @Lasse way is by far the perfect way, there are some misconceptions about the ammonia rise after exposure to O2. Most bags if not all that are transported are filled with concentrated O2, this maintains normal O2 exchange for as long as 72 hours. I have tested this theory of ammonia rise and of all the samples I've tested, I never saw an ammonia rise.

It is very important that you match sg if your tank is higher than the bag, if they are going into a qt/observation you can always adjust the tank.

Nothing like checking ideas against data.

 

[Lasse]

Nothing like checking ideas against data.

And of cause - this fact is checked of me and a whole industry with measurements.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[lion king]

Have test this too - it works but IME - it not as safe as the CO2 method. I have done this when there was +300 bags to open and we did not have opportunity to lower the pH in individual receiving tanks



This is according to my experiences too - it is many times more safety to take out the fish and put it directly into the receiving tank - more safe than drip acclimation after a long transport. However - if there is a lot of ammonia in the bag - the blood of the fishes in the bag will hold a low pH and much ammonia. If you - in this situation put the fish directly into good water with high pH - you can get an internal toxic response and the fish will die. It has happens to me with Malawi Cichlids.



The ammonia accumulation in the bags is no theory - it is simple that way. But you will normally not see any deadly ackumulation during short transports (<15 hours) but at long transport - it is there. This is a well-known fact among people (like me) that have been unpacking fishes imported from the other side of the world - transport lenght up to 72 hours


There is no connection between oxygen levels or sources and ammonia concentrations as I know. It is to different and separate processes. Oxygen will be used in the respiration process (with CO2 as waste) and NH3/NH4 is the waste from the cellulare breakdown and reorganization of proteins and amino acids. Both the uptake of oxygen and the secretion of NH3/NH4 takes place in the gills but or both different and independent processes.

Sincerely Lasse

I would probably say your 15 hr rule likely applies, as this is likely the timeframe involved that I have seen. What I do know is that transporting a fish from sg as low as I have tested at 1.017 to full reef at 1.025 without acclimation, means almost guaranteed death. Most hobbyist are not going to the lengths you describe, so how are we to proceed. I've never lost a fish that wasn't already dying by using an extended acclimation. But I have lost fish when I didn't understand the dangers of too high a difference in sg.