Fish wipeout, but not inverts

laineyg6 · Jul 17, 2015

I need some expert advice. After about 3 years of having a 10 Gallon Nano tank, I had a wipeout today. Needless to say there was much weeping, swearing and gnashing of teeth. The other residents I have are soft corals (zoas, mushrooms, palys, ricordea, rhodactis), hermits, a pistol shrimp, small serpent star and a tiny turbo snail.

When I fed them last night, everyone seemed normal. My tailspot blenny was breathing a bit hard, but other than that, I didn't notice any problems. I lost 2 clownfish, a green clown goby, an antenna goby, blue neon goby, tailspot blenny, and a green banded goby. When I walked in about 6pm, my fish were all on the sand, dead. The only signs of damage were nips to their fins by the hermits and other scavengers. No ulcers, no spots, no lumps, no injuries, no visible parasites.

I am at a loss. All of my little inverts survived (even a sea cucumber that came back to life after a few weeks of laying on the sand. He is NOT the poisonous type, or so I'm told by my LFS. I'm just baffled. I checked nitrites, nitrates, chlorine, salinity, temperature. It's all within the correct parameters. I need some advice about how to proceed. I don't have room to get a new, bigger tank, but that's in my future. This is a basic 10G, HOB filter, LED lights, sand, live rock, extra circulation pump. I don't have a skimmer or UV sterilizer.

How do I begin to rebuild? What's my time frame? I was thinking a month of just cycling what's in the tank. I've already done a 50% water change, but other than that, not sure what I should do next.

Humblefish · Jul 17, 2015

Did you notice any scratching, or fish swimming into the flow of a powerhead before the wipeout? Or acting reclusive (staying out of the light)? From a disease standpoint, usually only velvet kills so quickly & thoroughly. The dinospores invade the gills and the fish die from asphyxiation. Usually physical symptoms also manifest (tiny dots all over the body & fins), but not always. This is why it's important to pick up on key behavioral symptoms, such as those mentioned above.

Did you also test for ammonia & pH? Elevated ammonia can kill quickly, but your corals/inverts should have also been affected. Some of the soft corals you mentioned are capable of spitting toxins, but again more than just your fish should have been affected by that. Same goes if a toxin of some kind got into the water. Do you run carbon?

Humblefish · Jul 17, 2015

Velvet (Amyloodinium):

Symptoms - Because velvet can be such a fast killer, key behavioral symptoms will often prelude visible ones. A fish with velvet may breathe heavy, seek relief by swimming into the flow of a powerhead and act reclusive (velvet makes them sensitive to light).

If visible symptoms do manifest; velvet appears the same as ich, except the fish will usually be covered in “dust.” This dust may look gold colored if viewed at the right angle and under the right spectrum of light. Velvet is often misdiagnosed as ich and is the main “tank killer” in our hobby. It can wipe out all your fish in less than 72 hours and cannot usually be “managed” as ich sometimes is.

Treatment options - Chloroquine phosphate is the treatment of choice for velvet, but copper also works if symptoms are caught early on. Tank transfer and hypo does not work with velvet. A freshwater dip or formalin bath is recommended before treatment begins, due to the severity of this disease; however these would only provide temporary relief and will not eradicate velvet.

laineyg6 · Jul 17, 2015

No twitching, no scratching that I saw. The only thing I saw the night before was my tailspot blenny breathing hard, but he acted normally, popping in and out of his little hole in the live rock. I checked the pH and it was within range. Did not test for Ammonia, but wouldn't that have killed my inverts too? That's what's so puzzling. I don't THINK that it's water quality. No pesticides or cleaners in use.

Yes, I use a HOB filter with carbon and a packet of Purigen.

Webslinger · Jul 17, 2015

Thats alot of fish for a 10G like 3x to many. Ammonia spike?

Tahoe61 · Jul 17, 2015

Sound like it could be an anoxic event, check all pumps and skimmers. A small tank with that bio-load anything could have pushed it over the edge o2 wise. Have you disturbed the sand bed at all?

laineyg6 · Jul 17, 2015

I know the tank was full, but the fish were all very small. The tank raised clownfish were an inch (1/2 that size when I got them). The green banded goby was super duper tiny as well. I have a small little colony of macro algae growing in a back corner of the tank. I'll check for Ammonia and see what happens. Never disturb the sand bed except the edges when cleaning.

How would ammonia not have killed the inverts?

When you say check pumps and skimmers, do you mean functionality? They're working as normal. I think there is plenty of flow, my softies and algae get blown all around.

laineyg6 · Jul 17, 2015

The feeling is just nauseating. I'm sure you all have been there, but MAN.

Tahoe61 · Jul 17, 2015

Yes check them out functionally. You would be surprised at how occluded lines, intakes.... get, check wires, rinse impellers. Make sure something is not being tripped off at night or any other time. I like tiny tanks too, and yes I have had it happen, but mine was a carbon over dose.

It's heart breaking, sorry.

Humblefish · Jul 17, 2015

laineyg6 said:
The feeling is just nauseating. I'm sure you all have been there, but MAN.

We've all been there at one time or another. It's very depressing. The worst is when you can't figure out exactly what caused it. Hang in there.

laineyg6 · Jul 19, 2015

Thanks for the advice errbody.

So, while I don't rule out the possibility of an ammonia spike, can someone advise why it would not have affected the inverts? I even saw a sea cuke "come back to life". It had been lounging (in one piece) but lifeless near the sand for a few weeks and it extended it's little feelers (branches/filters) the day before the fish died.

Humblefish · Jul 19, 2015

laineyg6 said:
Thanks for the advice errbody.

So, while I don't rule out the possibility of an ammonia spike, can someone advise why it would not have affected the inverts? I even saw a sea cuke "come back to life". It had been lounging (in one piece) but lifeless near the sand for a few weeks and it extended it's little feelers (branches/filters) the day before the fish died.

An ammonia spike should have, at the very least, made your corals look "bad" for a little while.

laineyg6 · Jul 19, 2015

The corals were all fine from what I can observe. They're all soft. Color is good, mushrooms dropping off their babies periodically. I don't know. The pH was a bit high, but if I understand correctly, and ammonia spike would be caused by too much bioload, which if it goes unchecked will LOWER the pH. Is that accurate? Like, the nitrates spike out first and then it goes back to ammonia?

I am just unsure about where to go from here. Nervous to get new fish. If I need to cycle, I certainly am happy to do so. If it's bacterial or viral or something, do I just continue to cycle and/or do water changes?

I thought, since it's such a tiny tank, that I might acclimate a Molly over to fresh water and let it do the cycling. That's actually how I started the tank a few years ago. I would be happy to try another small fish, but the only inexpensive ones are damsels and I'm NOT going there. My LFS is happy to take back saltwater Mollies, even though there is basically no value to them.

Humblefish · Jul 19, 2015

Softies can withstand brief ammonia spikes better than most fish, but you still should have seen the mushrooms spit. The toxins they spit out should have been removed by the carbon, but that can kill fish in & of itself in such a small tank. If the carbon wasn't effective at removing it.

You said the pH was a bit high? How high?

laineyg6 · Jul 19, 2015

8.8 or so.

Softies didn't spit from what I could tell. No tell-tale slime or stringy bits.

Humblefish · Jul 19, 2015

laineyg6 said:
8.8 or so.

Softies didn't spit from what I could tell. No tell-tale slime or stringy bits.

8.8 is pretty high, although I'm unsure whether or not that is high enough to kill fish. How did it get that high in the first place? Kalk or doser malfunction?

laineyg6 · Jul 23, 2015

No clue how it got so high. I don't typically dose with anything except the Kent Part A & B set. I have been watching all week and all of the inverts seem fine. Actually, more active than normal.

From here, I'm just not sure about how to proceed. How long do you think I need to wait before starting to populate the tank again? I have a new plan in place for water so that I can maintain the quality better and have ordered a couple of test kits.

I am a bit concerned about my pistol shrimp being all alone in his little rock.

nept2n · Jul 23, 2015

I feel for you. Three months ago I had the same thing happen to me but mine is an 80 gallon. I've checked everything I could to try to figure it out and just you all my parameters were on point. Ultimately I was running it fishless but as of last week I decided to tear it down and start over. I hope you can figure it out.

frogman_reefer · Jul 23, 2015

Odd question, but do you get your water from a well? I ask because my neighbor had a similar even when they tapped into the well in our area for repairs, a lot of limestone broke off and the PH spiked causing a huge increase in our water.

I wasn't home during that week and fortunately skipped my water change. He lost a lot of items really quickly. Doubt that's the issue, but there are so many possible issues it's hard to narrow down.

I've had minor crashes, lost high end corals, but never a system meltdown like that. Feel for you but check your water in your RO, or tap etc... Make sure it wasn't something like that.

One final question, do you own or have cucumbers? If one of those died that could cause it.