Fishless tank??

[mcarroll]

I know some vendors offer some qt service and will most likely go that route if i get fish

You should definitely know what QT procedure your retailer uses and act accordingly.

corals are heterotrophic feeders they must eat to live as they are not classed as autotrophs and photosynthesis cannot produce enough nutrients as a stand alone diet.

I know I'll have to cough up a reference for this (later), but this has been proven false.

Some/all corals have been found to also host commensal or symbiotic cyanobacteria, effectively giving the coral holobiont N-fixing capability. Bacteria are also supreme scavengers of P, so corals are probably even somewhat resistant to P-starvation.

Almost every day I'm amazed that corals are even more amazing than we think they are.

 

[brandon429]

If they are no longer classed as heterotrophic feeders via gastric cavity feeding, the ones she kept, ill be amazed do post.

Very good discussion topic

The heart of the ageless question... can one keep a truly closed ecosystem, no protein input due to no need for it

If animals that slough off cells are in the system, or mucus producers, or any animal that produces whole waste pellets are included then an amine/protein system exists and people that have worked on the matter a long time claim feed input is required for octocorallia and to keep unused amino acids avail to the protein system for assimilation. We think live rock even if unfed might provide years possibly of slow degrade enough to keep wheels in motion w basic water changes etc

Her getting months in that condition I could see. But five years? Let's see

Even the sealed ecosystems with popular shrimp don't keep them full lifespan, that's a fair demo on how long no input works, and that's only for shrimp

One neat counter reference is to look up pjreefs.com

Small stilled tanks, bare bones

What's the feed req stated
If it wasn't required he wouldn't be using it. Feed is a polluter...more helpful to leave out if possible.

Strong science to the contrary-it's claimed protein input is required at least in some form in the biosystems we keep because light driven synthesis can't produce all required substrate for metabolism

the alternative is slow negative nitrogen balance and a cycling out of higher order colonizers unless there's something out there specifically saying light driven synthesis produced the fats and amino acids etc

Highly interested to see

 

[brandon429]

A formal article needs to be written regarding the protein input needs or non needs of the reef aquarium. if it's not required it changes pico reefing into something simpler and we can look at counter examples to try and locate protein/nitrogen and carbon reserves which did sustain or not

Reserves of nitrogen and phosphorus as a bare minimum among others are required because the softs she kept are respiring organisms...they're burning substrate for metabolism, and they're having to produce cuticle cells each time sloughing occurs...we are dealing with an unapparent food source.

I'm assuming for example the system didn't run zero N and P... soft systems are known to command some nutrient measure they don't generate more than they require for metabolism and tissue replacement...DNA repair etc

If nitrogen or phosphorus measured in the system it's a direct implication of someone adding protein to the system even if unapparent.


https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/forum/55-biotopes/

It's amazing to see what that specific group of reefers does with bare bones and cold water setups. Cryptic, stilled, I bet no greater lode of rule breaking can be found and they all must feed. These are the guys who want a way to run systems that do not require nutrient supplementation, they're seeking pure stand alone ecosystem recycling

All the science that pjreefs used to make his business came from hashings on that forum back approx 2009 I rank it as the best study data for bare minimum reefing possibility but it takes a long time to search a ~10 yr forum

 

[mcarroll]

Strong science to the contrary-it's claimed protein input is required at least in some form in the biosystems we keep because light driven synthesis can't produce all required substrate for metabolism

the alternative is slow negative nitrogen balance and a cycling out of higher order colonizers unless there's something out there specifically saying light driven synthesis produced the fats and amino acids etc

Highly interested to see

Can't disagree.....a reference or two might shed more light if I'd provide one/some! (Ya think???)

Basically cyano* would have to fix enough N to "outcompete" the denitrifying bacteria in the tank. And the coral would probably have to consume the cyano (like they do with their dino's) to benefit completely from it. Hypothetically. I think the coral's holobiont would be independent of this to a large degree if we presume they farm the cyano to "adequate levels" that they determine. From my understanding there's no lack of dissolved N2. It would be a question of how/if that can be upcycled into enough proteins and other N-compounds to keep everything working. As you've said, their system is, at minimum, very very good at conserving N once they acquire it. I'm sure cyano has at least some hand in that.

(I know I know – link plzzzzzz!)

* or other N-fixers....it might've been related to the same N-fixers on legume roots....I gotta to a dig in my reference pile when I get a chance.....TOO MANY TO REMEMBER EM ALL!

 

[Orcus Varuna]

You should definitely know what QT procedure your retailer uses and act accordingly.



I know I'll have to cough up a reference for this (later), but this has been proven false.

Some/all corals have been found to also host commensal or symbiotic cyanobacteria, effectively giving the coral holobiont N-fixing capability. Bacteria are also supreme scavengers of P, so corals are probably even somewhat resistant to P-starvation.

Almost every day I'm amazed that corals are even more amazing than we think they are.

Source please

But yes it is known as a fact that corals act as a symbiont host for more then just zooxanthelli. The efficacy of the transfer of byproducts from symbiont to host though is pretty hotly debated and pretty difficult to prove in an evidence based setting. Really though difficult is an understatement... The sheer number of variables present in established marine syestems makes it impossible to standardize and make repeatable an experiment. maybe if someone developes a repeatable method for this we can ask them to answer the other burning mystery of reefing ; what exactly makes up the "special sauce" that a nice aged system has that newer systems do not? Then they can bottle this sauce and sell it to me for $20 a bottle so I can have an established system in 3 days or less

 

[Carlos Danger]

Even with doser dialed in and everything stable I like to at the least check alk at least 2-3 days a week. There's still fluctations in the curve depending on how stuff grows in your tank.

 

[mcarroll]

Source please

I think I actually might have a few sources already posted on the blog like this one that mention it:
Putting the N in dinoflagellates

But there are others I haven't gotten around to posting yet:
http://www.cell.com/trends/microbio...m/retrieve/pii/S0966842X1500075X?showall=true

 

[Orcus Varuna]

I think I actually might have a few sources already posted on the blog like this one that mention it:
Putting the N in dinoflagellates

But there are others I haven't gotten around to posting yet:
http://www.cell.com/trends/microbio...m/retrieve/pii/S0966842X1500075X?showall=true

Precisely echoes what I said in my previous post. The theory is there proving it is another story and a problem those researchers acknowledge

 

[mcarroll]

We don't have most of their problems, thankfully.....all we do is run little isolated experiment tanks where our hands are on most of the levers so to speak.

It's more than theory, BTW....all the mechanisms are there and more or less described....the understanding of how the mechanisms interwork is mysterious. The "why", if you will.

 

[ReeferMadnessfragandco]

Hi guys!
I just lost all my fish to velvet. As I understand i need to go fishless for 76 days. So will my coral be ok? I have a bunch of zoas. Some LPS and some SPS. Jawbreaker and Bounce. Mostly high end stuff so im scared if this will affect my tank in any way.
Got a 65g had 6 fish.
I dose Aquaforest Coral A and Coral V. Every other day. AF coral food once a week and oyster feast once a week. Am i ok?
Thx
Brani

Corals are unaffected too new tanks cycling! Just fish are much more sensitive ..