Flame angel is dying fast!

Steve1500 · Apr 17, 2018

I have a flame and a damsel in the 4th phase of TTM. Ammonia badge shows slight elevations but the Red Sea showed nothing. No meds have been used in this TTM. I dosed about 1.5-2 times the amount of Prime (actually Seachem equivalent) and did a 30% WC.

Angel is laying on its side and breathing heavily. It sometimes gets upright and swims to the top to get Oxygen, I think. I also have a damsel but he looks ok and can probably tolerate the elevated ammonia. Is there any thing else I can do? I have another tank with some saltwater in it that I was going to transfer them to on Thurs but I am afraid to stress them out more. I could also put them in a 5 g bucket with water from the other tank. Pls help!

Big G · Apr 17, 2018

A bath in methylene blue helps to alleviate ammonia burns to the gills.

Methylene Blue: Treats ammonia burn/exposure, cuts, injuries. Will possibly detoxify a fish that has been exposed to cyanide poisoning.

How To Treat - Comes in both liquid and powder form, sometimes mixed in with another medication. So, follow the directions on the label. Generally used as a 30 minute bath/dip at double dose, but you can also dose it directly into a quarantine tank. Aerate heavily. You can combine M Blue with nitrofurazone (active ingredient found in Furan-2) if needing to treat for a bacterial infection. In fact, Nitrofuracin Green Powder contains both medications and is great for treating open wounds or sores.

Malachite Green is sometimes used in lieu of M Blue, but it is considered “harsher” on fish than Methylene Blue.

Pros - Highly effective.

Cons/Side Effects - Depletes oxygen from the water.

Steve1500 · Apr 17, 2018

Thanks. I moved him to a bucket with water from the other tank. He’s not looking good and I doubt he will make it to the morning. If he does I will see if my LFS has the MB. Big lessons for me here. Appreciate the fast and detailed response.

Steve1500 · Apr 17, 2018

He’s gone. First fish loss. Bummed.

Big G · Apr 17, 2018

Sorry for your loss. This hobby has a rather steep learning curve.

4FordFamily · Apr 17, 2018

TTM is very difficult with angels, they’re hypersensitive to ammonia.

Sorry for your loss!

tgrick · Apr 17, 2018

It may not be a bad idea to dip him in fresh water to see if flukes pop out of the gills. I know he is gone, but we can use this to learn more about diseases. You need the bottom of the cup to be dark. See if anything comes out of him. A flame angel is not exactly a weak fish...I'm not convinced it was ammonia. Sorry for your losses...we have all been there and will continue to be there but hopefully less as we learn.

tangtime · Apr 17, 2018

Sorry to hear.

Unfortunately TTM is hard on livestock and I personally wouldn’t recommend it for that reason and others.

Steve1500 · Apr 18, 2018

Guess what...he ain't dead! After I discovered the problem, I moved him to a 5 G bucket w fresh SW. He just laid there and when I tried to move him, he did not budge so I assumed he was dead. This morning, he was swimming around the bucket, albeit very slowly. He does not look great but he is alive!
Big G recommends MB/Furan 2 or Nitrofuracin Green powder. BRS meth blue instructions say this: Cautions: Methylene Blue should not be used in systems that utilize biological filtration. It will interfere with the biological processes of nitrifying bacteria.

If I put him into my main QT and add Meth Blue or Green powder, do I need to remove the sponge filter where the bacteria reside? They are talking about LR as the bio filter and not the sponge with the bacteria on it, right?

Also, like tgrick, I am not 100% sure it was ammonia so what else should I do besides the FW dip?

Finally, he is scheduled to be removed from TTM tomorrow and go to QT for observation. Should I slowly ramp up with copper to treat for velvet/brook? I know, overkill.

If he lives, his name is Lazarus.

tdowning · Apr 18, 2018

Steve1500 said:
He’s gone. First fish loss. Bummed.

Sorry for your loss...I know how much it sucks. My favorite fish died recently

Big G · Apr 18, 2018

Steve1500 said:
Guess what...he ain't dead! After I discovered the problem, I moved him to a 5 G bucket w fresh SW. He just laid there and when I tried to move him, he did not budge so I assumed he was dead. This morning, he was swimming around the bucket, albeit very slowly. He does not look great but he is alive!
Big G recommends MB/Furan 2 or Nitrofuracin Green powder. BRS meth blue instructions say this: Cautions: Methylene Blue should not be used in systems that utilize biological filtration. It will interfere with the biological processes of nitrifying bacteria.

If I put him into my main QT and add Meth Blue or Green powder, do I need to remove the sponge filter where the bacteria reside? They are talking about LR as the bio filter and not the sponge with the bacteria on it, right?

Also, like tgrick, I am not 100% sure it was ammonia so what else should I do besides the FW dip?

Finally, he is scheduled to be removed from TTM tomorrow and go to QT for observation. Should I slowly ramp up with copper to treat for velvet/brook? I know, overkill.

If he lives, his name is Lazarus.

Best to do the MB in a separate bucket. Heavily dose with O2

Big G · Apr 18, 2018

Only add the Furan2 if the fish has a bacterial infection.

4FordFamily · Apr 18, 2018

tgrick said:
It may not be a bad idea to dip him in fresh water to see if flukes pop out of the gills. I know he is gone, but we can use this to learn more about diseases. You need the bottom of the cup to be dark. See if anything comes out of him. A flame angel is not exactly a weak fish...I'm not convinced it was ammonia. Sorry for your losses...we have all been there and will continue to be there but hopefully less as we learn.

I vehemently disagree about flame angels — newly added flame angels (unestablished to captivity) are quite fragile. Centrpyge as a group are hypersensitive to low oxygen and ammonia. This is one of many reasons why they’re the first to bob to the top of the water when stored temporarily for any reason, or transported. I do NOT find them overtly sensitive to copper, as many believe. I suspect this reputation is people associating copper with quarantine deaths when in reality it’s generally trace ammonia in an unicycled environment, or low 02– or both. Once these two things are controlled (dr tims and Biospira are amazing for biofilter in new QT and either an air stone or powerhead aimed up for oxygen or both) they do better than many other fish in copper.

Of course, the same could be said for most fish. These are common reasons people think quarantining is futile.

Halal Hotdog · Apr 18, 2018

I have seen TTM tends to be very stressful on most fish. I imagine if you can have multiple tanks set up that are identical in every way, including aquascape/PVC, then that may lead to a much less stressful transition. TTM absolutely works, but I don't have the above mentioned setup to attempt it again.

Steve1500 · Apr 18, 2018

I gave the flame a bath/dip in Fritz's Methylene Blue. Per instructions on the bottle, I dosed the water to 50ppm and bathed the fish for 10 seconds. The instructions do not specify how many days these bathing should last for. Can somebody please tell me how many days I should treat assuming it is ammonia poisoning? I assume the poisoning was not too bad because he is swimming around in the 5G bucket today. Last night, I thought he was dead because he did not move when I touched him and sloshed the water around. I did not medicate with anything else today.

Does 10 seconds at 50ppm sound right?....most other MBs say 30 minutes but I don't know what the ppm is.

Big G · Apr 18, 2018

Here's Humblefish's Methylene Blue treatment guidelines:

According to the directions, there are only two safe treatment options when using Methylene Blue:

Option #1 - In a QT (recommended)

Add 1 teaspoon of Methylene Blue per 10 gallons of water. This produces a concentration of 3 ppm. Continue the treatment for 3 to 5 days.
Return fish to the DT

Option #2 - Quick bath solution (allows just enough time for the gill tissue to absorb some of the medication)

Place fish in a 5 gallon bucket using aquarium water.
Add 5 teaspoons of Methylene Blue per 3 gallons of water. This produces a concentration of 50 ppm.
Place fish in this solution for no longer than 10 seconds.
Return fish to DT (pour a little aquarium water over the fish to "wash away" any excess medication, but DO NOT rinse any away from the gills.)

I've always used Option #1 even when doing a short 60 min bath. However, Carl Strohmeyer (whom I greatly admire) advocates 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons (double dose) for 30 mins: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.html#methylene_blue

My preferred use of Methylene Blue is a bath.
To prepare this bath I use 1 teaspoon 2.303% solution per 5 gallons (double dose) in a bath of aquarium water from the tank the fish you wish to treat came from, I usually use about a ½ gallon of water, however you may use less.
Measurement of the Methylene Blue does not need to be precise as this bath should be used for about 30 minutes (although do not grossly overdose).
You may also add salts to your bath to improve effectiveness for certain problems when preparing baths for freshwater fish (such as swim bladder, dropsy or unknown problems). Generally I would use 1 teaspoon of sodium chloride (regular salt) per gallon and occasionally ¼ teaspoon of Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) per gallon.