Flasher/Carpenter Wrasses never make it through QT???

[MCooper]

Just wondering if this is something others have experienced? LOVE this fish and have lost every single one in a similar manner. They start off doing great. Eating well and swimming around, very active. Then BOOM.
Chloroquine Phosphate is my main medication
Also General Cure, Furan 2 and Kanaplex all used when indicated, yet nada!

 

[Deinonych]

I've had poor results with flashers and CP in the past. Symptoms are the same as yours - active and feeding, then a rapid decline and death. I no longer use CP prophylactically - only for confirmed velvet infections. For crypto (ich), I've had much better (and reliable) results with TTM.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

 

[Humblefish]

Is it just the Carpenter's you're having problems with or all flasher wrasses?

I just looked over my notes, and I've successfully used CP on a lot more fairies than flashers. I'll check with a LFS I advise in the morning to see if he's been having any problems with flashers & CP.

 

[fab]

Following with concerned interest.
fab

 

[MCooper]

Is it just the Carpenter's you're having problems with or all flasher wrasses?

I just looked over my notes, and I've successfully used CP on a lot more fairies than flashers. I'll check with a LFS I advise in the morning to see if he's been having any problems with flashers & CP.

I am ashamed to say I actually am not very sure on the difference between the 2. I am not going to get any more wrasses until all my other fish are finished with QT then when I get my wrasses, will likely not use CP just to be safe.

 

[4FordFamily]

I would try copper then. You don't want to risk no treatment at all. The odds are not in your favor these days.

Flasher wrasse are smaller and typically reddish with varied degrees of flashing fins. They mostly look similar to one another to an untrained eye until terminal male or flashing male.

Fairy wrasse are a very diverse group of wrasse that get much larger (still not huge but a flasher is a small genus of wrasse) perhaps twice the average size of an adult flasher on average. Much variance in color, size, etc. similar body shape but fins are less extravagant except for a few like the flame fairy and Sailfin fairy.

 

[4FordFamily]

Fairy http://m.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=276

Flasher
http://m.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=277

 

[MCooper]

I am going to simply add Wrasses last to my DT and QT them with Copper vs. CP

Thanks everyone, just bummed.

 

[Humblefish]

Just heard back from my LFS, and he's had no issues using CP on fairy or flasher wrasses. But he does report problems using it on Six Line and some Halichoeres genus wrasses (exs. Melanurus, Yellow Coris). However, I will make it a point to test CP on more flasher wrasses in the future so we can get to the bottom of this. In the meantime, I'm going to change the CP sticky to recommend not using CP on any wrasses for the time being. There's just too much confusion regarding this issue right now. Wrasses seem to handle chelated copper well anyway, so that is probably the best chemical option for them.

@DrCooper I noticed you said you were using "General Cure, Furan 2 and Kanaplex" with CP. While I have mixed all those before, it's probably not optimal to do so. In the future I would omit the antibiotics (Furan 2 and Kanaplex) unless you are seeing symptoms of a bacterial disease. Those two are the worst when it comes to appetite suppression and oxygen depletion. Not saying for sure this is your problem, but it's worth mentioning as a possibility. In any case, I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your wrasses.

 

[MCooper]

Just heard back from my LFS, and he's had no issues using CP on fairy or flasher wrasses. But he does report problems using it on Six Line and some Halichoeres genus wrasses (exs. Melanurus, Yellow Coris). However, I will make it a point to test CP on more flasher wrasses in the future so we can get to the bottom of this. In the meantime, I'm going to change the CP sticky to recommend not using CP on any wrasses for the time being. There's just too much confusion regarding this issue right now. Wrasses seem to handle chelated copper well anyway, so that is probably the best chemical option for them.

@DrCooper I noticed you said you were using "General Cure, Furan 2 and Kanaplex" with CP. While I have mixed all those before, it's probably not optimal to do so. In the future I would omit the antibiotics (Furan 2 and Kanaplex) unless you are seeing symptoms of a bacterial disease. Those two are the worst when it comes to appetite suppression and oxygen depletion. Not saying for sure this is your problem, but it's worth mentioning as a possibility. In any case, I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your wrasses.

Thanks!

 

[Deinonych]

I'm going to change the CP sticky to recommend not using CP on any wrasses for the time being. There's just too much confusion regarding this issue right now. Wrasses seem to handle chelated copper well anyway, so that is probably the best chemical option for them.

That's probably the prudent route. Anecdotally, I've lost the following flashers to CP in the past: P. mccoskeri, P. cyaneus, P. filamentosus. Of course, I prefer TTM for crypto elimination, so it's no longer an issue for me. I understand that some folks prefer the convenience of chemical treatments, though.

 

[4FordFamily]

That's probably the prudent route. Anecdotally, I've lost the following flashers to CP in the past: P. mccoskeri, P. cyaneus, P. filamentosus. Of course, I prefer TTM for crypto elimination, so it's no longer an issue for me. I understand that some folks prefer the convenience of chemical treatments, though.

My concern is that wrasse can survive with velvet present and build an immunity. TTM will help with crypt but then the wrasse goes in and brings velvet with it. I've had many wrasse survive velvet even for months, showing no noticeable symptoms at all while tangs and Angels drop dead

 

[monkiboy]

My concern is that wrasse can survive with velvet present and build an immunity. TTM will help with crypt but then the wrasse goes in and brings velvet with it. I've had many wrasse survive velvet even for months, showing no noticeable symptoms at all while tangs and Angels drop dead

that has been my experience as well with a couple species of fish and velvet. prophylaxis for treatment of velvet is seemingly becoming less and less of an option.

 

[Deinonych]

My concern is that wrasse can survive with velvet present and build an immunity. TTM will help with crypt but then the wrasse goes in and brings velvet with it. I've had many wrasse survive velvet even for months, showing no noticeable symptoms at all while tangs and Angels drop dead

Fair enough. However, it should be pointed out that any fish (not just wrasses) can acquire immunity from Amyloodinium if they survive the initial exposure. As with any treatment methodology, it comes down to risk vs. reward. Copper is not without its risks (toxicity, immune suppression etc.), so one must weigh the known risks vs. the unknown. This reinforces the need for a sound quarantine practice that includes careful observation of behavior, as well as the ability to respond quickly if signs of disease present themselves.

 

[Humblefish]

Fair enough. However, it should be pointed out that any fish (not just wrasses) can acquire immunity from Amyloodinium if they survive the initial exposure. As with any treatment methodology, it comes down to risk vs. reward. Copper is not without its risks (toxicity, immune suppression etc.), so one must weigh the known risks vs. the unknown. This reinforces the need for a sound quarantine practice that includes careful observation of behavior, as well as the ability to respond quickly if signs of disease present themselves.

^^Observing behavior is key in QT. You can't just dump a bunch of meds in and put the QT on autopilot. You have to sit in front of the QT every single day and watch your fish. And you're not just watching for white dots or other visible physical symptoms of disease. Because even a fish with acquired immunity will display subtle behavioral symptoms: heavy breathing, scratching, flashing, a head twitch here & there, erratic swimming behavior. The symptom is always there if you just watch for it. You may not be able to pin down exactly what you're dealing with, but you will know something isn't quite right with this fish and prophylactic treatment (CP, copper, Prazi, etc.) is a wise course of action.

 

[Deinonych]

You have to sit in front of the QT every single day and watch your fish.

This. My wife thinks I'm out of my mind when I sit in front of a QT watching a fish swim back and forth, but it's for a good cause.

 

[fab]

But I thought we are out of our minds! Isn't that a pre-requisite for this addiction?

 

[MCooper]

This. My wife thinks I'm out of my mind when I sit in front of a QT watching a fish swim back and forth, but it's for a good cause.

hahaha my wife also! I will stand and stare

 

[MCooper]

Also, since using Furan-2 the water has continued to have a green discoloration. I havent put any in the tank in 2 weeks almost and done many water changes.

 

[TCFletch]

This. My wife thinks I'm out of my mind when I sit in front of a QT watching a fish swim back and forth, but it's for a good cause.

My husband is about to divorce me for the same reason! It's a reef thing; he wouldn't understand. LOL