Flasher wrasses & QT

[Deinonych]

So, I have observed a puzzling phenomenon regarding flasher wrasses and QT. Almost without exception, newly-acquired terminal-phase male flashers will "revert" to sub-male in QT, losing their filaments and tail streamers about a week or so after acquisition. I've observed this with P. cyaneus, P. mccoskeri and P. filamentosus specifically. They eventually return to terminal phase, but it's typically several months later, and seemingly not to the full brilliance of the original TP state when acquired. Has anyone else experienced this, and how do you prevent it (if possible)?

 

[eatbreakfast]

Not me, mine have stayed TP in qt,though they are seldom in on their own.

Maybe try putting a mirror up to see if that will get their competitive blood flowing.

 

[Deinonych]

Do you QT them with other wrasses or fish from different families altogether? I typically QT them by themselves, so maybe that is contributing to the phenomenon? The mirror is a good idea.

 

[eatbreakfast]

My tank is wrasses, dartfish, or anthias. Usually it's at least two wrasses, as I find this helps diffuse aggression upon introduction, but there may be instances of one by itself with the other fish, so since they are all peaceful planktivores maybe the wrasses were able to feel dominant.

 

[Dreadnaught]

This guy arrived 4 days ago. He is with 3 Anthia in a 20G. I'll report back over the next few weeks.

 

[evolved]

I don't mean to sound snide here, but in these instances you are using terms incorrectly. Terminal phase males are just that; the transition is terminal and a reversal is not possible. Now, judging when a transitional male is a terminal male is completely subjective, therefore in all of the instances you describe what looked like a terminal male was in fact still a transitional male.

I can't say I have ever experienced this, even when QT a Paracheilinus by itself with no other tank mates.

A mirror on the QT is a decent idea, provided it does not become a point of undue stress.

 

[Deinonych]

Thank you for the insight, Hunter. It was my understanding that terminal males could not revert as well, hence my confusion at what is happening. I purchase all of my fish from LiveAquaria/Diver's Den, so I would think that a fish (esp. from Diver's Den) listed and appearing as a TP male is indeed just that and not a transitional male. But, perhaps I'm just having bad luck and getting transitional males instead of TP males. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures when I get home from work. I'm pretty sure I have a couple pics of a P. cyaneus at different points in time demonstrating the phenomenon.

 

[Deinonych]

OK, found some pictures of my previous P. cyaneus before he decided to play chicken with one of my MP40s.

Here's the fish when I first got him:

Here's what he looked like after QT. You can see that a few of his filaments have disappeared and the remaining ones are less "robust." He eventually lost all of his filaments, but I don't have a picture of him at that stage. He was the only wrasse in the tank at the time.

Here he is about 6 months later after I introduced a P. mccoskeri. You can see a couple of wimpy filaments have started to grow back.

Same fish, 6 months later. He would flash like this just about every day. You can see that his filaments have grown back, but they look pretty misshapen. Apologies for the blurry picture - was really tough to get a good shot of him with a macro lens when he was cruising around the tank like this.

My current P. cyaneus. You can see from the first picture that he has no filaments to speak of. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of him from when I first acquired him, but he looked very similar to the my previous P. cyaneus in the first picture above. Again, sorry for the blurry shot. Wanted to show that he is missing his filaments and he wouldn't sit still.

 

[evolved]

Thank you for the insight, Hunter. It was my understanding that terminal males could not revert as well, hence my confusion at what is happening. I purchase all of my fish from LiveAquaria/Diver's Den, so I would think that a fish (esp. from Diver's Den) listed and appearing as a TP male is indeed just that and not a transitional male. But, perhaps I'm just having bad luck and getting transitional males instead of TP males. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures when I get home from work. I'm pretty sure I have a couple pics of a P. cyaneus at different points in time demonstrating the phenomenon.

Well, my subtle point in there was that it is impossible for anyone to visually determine with 100% certainty that a terminal male is, in fact, a terminal male. No company could offer that kind of guarantee.

OK, found some pictures of my previous P. cyaneus before he decided to play chicken with one of my MP40s.

Here's the fish when I first got him:

Here's what he looked like after QT. You can see that a few of his filaments have disappeared and the remaining ones are less "robust." He eventually lost all of his filaments, but I don't have a picture of him at that stage. He was the only wrasse in the tank at the time.

Here he is about 6 months later after I introduced a P. mccoskeri. You can see a couple of wimpy filaments have started to grow back.

Same fish, 6 months later. He would flash like this just about every day. You can see that his filaments have grown back, but they look pretty misshapen. Apologies for the blurry picture - was really tough to get a good shot of him with a macro lens when he was cruising around the tank like this.

My current P. cyaneus. You can see from the first picture that he has no filaments to speak of. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of him from when I first acquired him, but he looked very similar to the my previous P. cyaneus in the first picture above. Again, sorry for the blurry shot. Wanted to show that he is missing his filaments and he wouldn't sit still.

But I do see what you mean. Don't get too hung up on the filaments, as those are soft rays sometimes they get ripped or nipped off. But being soft rays, they typically grow back.
But certainly in the first fish, I can see some reversal. I don't see much in the second, however.

 

[Deinonych]

Thanks for the reply. I'm not so much concerned about the filaments growing back (to your point, they will). What I'm more concerned about is something amiss in my QT procedure. The second fish above had a really difficult time in QT, to the point where I was concerned he wouldn't make it (hiding a lot, eating very little etc.). I literally watched his filaments erode away bit by bit each day, to the point where I thought he had fin rot. A round of kanamycin seemed to have little effect. He eventually made it through QT (obviously), but it was certainly touch and go for a while. He stopped eating completely when I administered Prazipro as part of my standard QT protocol. This fish was in QT by itself the entire time.

I would have chalked it up to a one-time issue, but I'm going through the same thing with a P. mccoskeri at the moment (fins eroding, hiding etc.). The only difference is that the P. mccoskeri started out in the same tank as a C. rubrimarginatus. I moved him to his own QT when I observed the fins eroding. Again, a kanamycin treatment seemed to have little to no effect on the fin erosion. Conversely, the C. rubrimarginatus shows no signs of fin erosion and is completely normal, healthy and active.

For reference, my QT is as follows. I've had no problems with any other fish (wrasses or otherwise) using this protocol, so I'm a bit at a loss as to why I'm only seeing this in Paracheilinus sp. wrasses.

1. Place newly acquired fish in QT, allow several days to settle in and adapt to a schedule
2. 2x Prazipro treatments, 7 days apart with W/C between treatments
3. TTM for crypto prevention
4. Observation for 1-2 weeks
5. Transfer to DT

I always use "clean" QTs with fresh SW (i.e. I don't keep a cycled QT running). Biofilter is seeded using Bio-spira with ceramic substrate in a HOB filter.

Any additional insight would be much appreciated.

 

[eatbreakfast]

A few dither may help. Being social planktivores, being on their own may be stressing it out, as not seeing any other fish swimming around is a sign that a predator is in the area.

 

[Deinonych]

That makes sense. The P. cyaneus made a rapid recovery once he got to the DT. I'm hoping the P. mccoskeri shows similar recovery once he is done with QT.

 

[evolved]

What I'm more concerned about is something amiss in my QT procedure.

I'm really not seeing any problem. I do something pretty similar to what you've outlined.

I'm a bit at a loss as to why I'm only seeing this in Paracheilinus sp. wrasses.

Me too, in full disclosure.

A few dither may help. Being social planktivores, being on their own may be stressing it out, as not seeing any other fish swimming around is a sign that a predator is in the area.

That's a good recommendation. I just wish I had another recommendation to make!

 

[Deinonych]

Thanks guys - appreciate the consideration. Fortunately, I have no plans for more flashers after the P. mccoskeri completes QT.

 

[Deinonych]

Thinking out loud here...I wonder if maybe it's a reaction to the bacteria in Bio-spira? It's the only thing that I can really point to, as the wrasses start to recover during TTM (clean water every 3 days with no established biofilter), with a full and rapid recovery once they hit the DT.

I think I'll go back to seeding media in my sump for QT; if anything, it will save some money.

 

[evolved]

I wonder if maybe it's a reaction to the bacteria in Bio-spira?

That would seem pretty odd, but truth is often stranger than fiction...

 

[ZoaCollector]

Sounds like a bacteria problem, or ammonia burn but you said the filter is established.
I honestly would wipe that tank clean and start over the qt.
Especially if you're seeing this only happen in this tank.

 

[Deinonych]

Sounds like a bacteria problem, or ammonia burn but you said the filter is established.
I honestly would wipe that tank clean and start over the qt.
Especially if you're seeing this only happen in this tank.

I always break down the QTs once quarantine is complete. This has happened with multiple fish starting with fresh QTs each time. It's definitely not ammonia - that was the first thing I tested when it started happening (Salifert test kit), and ammonia poisoning would cause systemic problems with the fish, not just fin erosion. Appreciate the suggestion, though.

 

[ZoaCollector]

I always break down the QTs once quarantine is complete. This has happened with multiple fish starting with fresh QTs each time. It's definitely not ammonia - that was the first thing I tested when it started happening (Salifert test kit), and ammonia poisoning would cause systemic problems with the fish, not just fin erosion. Appreciate the suggestion, though.

I would add Furan 2 as a prophylactic treatment for all new fish. It helps control the gram negative bacteria that causes fin rot.

If that doesn't help, then it could be a water or salt mix issue.

I've also never really had problems with fin erosion on the flashers either. Unless something was picking on it.

 

[Millimylilly]

About to start QT on a flasher. Going to do TTM to start, then monitor.