Flow Help

[justingraham]

in my new set up I want to put two vectra m1 s in my sump for returns. The tank is a 90 gallon rr. So it has the standard one inch drain and 3/4 return. I understand I will not get the full 2000 gph from the vectras but I will be trying to get the most I can with using the 1 1/4 barb fittings. Both returns will be hooked up to sea swirls.

So my question is how do I make sure the drains match the return? I want to switch to a herbie but from my understanding the most flow I will get thru a 3/4 line at full syphon is somewhere around 1100 gallons. So on to my question will the 3/4 work or should I make the 1 inch the full syphon. Thanks in advance justin
Ps I'm not changing my pumps so please I don't want to hear about this pump is better then the vectra the only thing I would consider doing is buying an l1

 

[Diesel]

In a 90 gallon tank you will have enough on one Vectra M1 pump.
You max return flow shouldn't be more than 900 gallon about 10x the volume of your tank.
If you wanna do better you will do around 500 gallon as you don't want to turn your sump into a white water river.
In my 200 gallon I have only give and take 1000 gallons on the return done by a Vectra L1, on my skimmer I have a M1 which will get most of the water filtered through the skimmer and I have a hard time keeping nutrients in the tank that effective is a medium to slow flow through your sump.

 

[justingraham]

In a 90 gallon tank you will have enough on one Vectra M1 pump.
You max return flow shouldn't be more than 900 gallon about 10x the volume of your tank.
If you wanna do better you will do around 500 gallon as you don't want to turn your sump into a white water river.
In my 200 gallon I have only give and take 1000 gallons on the return done by a Vectra L1, on my skimmer I have a M1 which will get most of the water filtered through the skimmer and I have a hard time keeping nutrients in the tank that effective is a medium to slow flow through your sump.

Really hum ok I'm a believe u cause I have a signed t shirt from you.
Should I still hook it up to the sea swirls? Only one or none?
Also should I use a penductor? I really want a lot of flow without any power heads in the tank I don't like the look.
But if ur going to tell me other wise I'm a listen as ur tank is awesome.

 

[Diesel]

You can do a sump pump for flow through your skimmer and a closed loop for your swirls.
I have 4 MP40's QD and I don't even notice they are there.

 

[mcarroll]

Certainly go for a closed loop or whatever else you have in mind if that's what you have your heart set on – there's no wrong way and I'm sure it'll be a fun project and experiment!

But much like Deisel said of the Vortechs....

A) You really only need 2x-4x flow through your sump. 10x is ok of course....again there's no wrong way....but above 5x does cause problems sometimes (noise, bubbles, etc), and doesn't buy you much/any utility vs 4x flow. Bigger flow mostly just gets you bigger pumps and bigger power usage.

B) You can literally hide Tunze powerheads (which can all be aimed in a virtually unlimited fashion) down behind the rock line out of sight or even within the rocks inside of Tunze's live-rock-lookalike ceramic covers. Tunze more or less invented these pumps to replace the closed loop and they did a bang-up job. The pumps also have a great warranty AND last virtually forever....a nice bonus.

Another bonus to powerheads in general is that you can move them around as needed vs a closed loop, which is pretty static by comparison. (SeaSwirls help.)

I'm sure you know, but a set of Tunzes are way way way less money than two Vectras and way more flow too.

 

[justingraham]

Ok well thanks guys for your help.
U really love those tunze mccaroll (I already have the m1s tho) we shall see I have time I'm just ordering up the parts on the internet and want to get some now as it always seems u need more.

 

[mcarroll]

I want to switch to a herbie but from my understanding the most flow I will get thru a 3/4 line at full syphon is somewhere around 1100 gallons. So on to my question will the 3/4 work or should I make the 1 inch the full syphon.

I don't know the exact flow you'll get, but I would set up the Herbie (or whatever arrangement you go with) to take the most it can, silently....rather than trying to push for any particular flow number or pump setting.

Going from memory, a 1" gravity drain can take up to 600 GPH....roughly ≤300GPH will be totally silent. >300GPH will be likely to be loud and gurgly and in need of help. I don't think it's worth the help, so just run it completely open (no maggie, durso, airline, etc, etc) as fast as it will go silently.

Assuming you're about right on the siphon (which may not need even need a valve at all in your case of very high flow) you could be looking at almost 2000 GPH.....1400GPH comfortably.

Definitely use the largest diameter plumbing on the return system as you can. More than likely 1.25" will be the smallest you'll want to consider.

Have we used this friction loss calculator on your situation yet?
http://www.freecalc.com/fric.htm

I'll be back in a bit, but you/we should be able to predict your maximum flow pretty reasonably using that.

 

[justingraham]

Ok mccarol so I'm using the 1 1/4 tubing from the pump up about five feet. Along that run I will have a shut off valve also a manifold from a 1 1/4 T to 3/4 pipe roughly a foot and a half long see pic bellow. I plan to use two 45 to get it from under my stand to behind the tank at about the trim of the tank I'm going to downgrade to one inch put a check valve and then 2 90's to get up and over the tank trim followed by three inches of one inch pipe a 45 and then a 1 inch to 3/4 adapter to a 3/4 penductor

 

[mcarroll]

Obviously the manifold is a question mark. How many slots will be used at any given time? How open will each one be? (I like to use separate pumps in applications like this to keep is simple and for redundancy.) We can't easily account for that....but hopefully the net effect won't be too great.

Why adapt down from 1.25" plumbing?

If you were doing a standard return with about 2x-4x flow rates no problem, but 3/4" is going to be pretty restrictive at high flow rates.

I would take 1.25" as far as you can....all the way to the return outlets if at all possible.

Assuming our 1400 GPH flow mentioned above, below is how a 3/4" system compares to a 1" and 1.5" system in terms of friction losses. (No 1.25" in the calculator.)

As you can see the effect is dramatic.

The "Head Loss (ft)" number is what you add to height of your system:

3/4"

Pressure Loss (psi): 9.71 Head Loss (ft): 21.9
Line Number:
Date: 2/1/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 0.75
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 23
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 0.824
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 13.84
Reynolds Number: 90483
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.019
Overall K: 7.35
Piping Length (ft): 6
Short Radius Elbows: 2
45 degree Elbows : 2
Tee Flow Branch : 1
Ball : 2
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 2​

1"

Pressure Loss (psi): 3.41 Head Loss (ft): 7.7
Line Number:
Date: 2/1/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 23
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 8.54
Reynolds Number: 71075
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.02
Overall K: 6.78
Piping Length (ft): 6
Short Radius Elbows: 2
45 degree Elbows : 2
Tee Flow Branch : 1
Ball : 2
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 2​

1.5"

Pressure Loss (psi): 0.55 Head Loss (ft): 1.2
Line Number:
Date: 2/1/2017
Nominal Pipe Size: 1.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 23
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.000016
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.61
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 3.63
Reynolds Number: 46309
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.022
Overall K: 6.11
Piping Length (ft): 6
Short Radius Elbows: 2
45 degree Elbows : 2
Tee Flow Branch : 1
Ball : 2
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 2​