Flow question

[Brew12]

I have a 120g, 72"x18"x21" aquarium. I have a MP40W on each end set just under 50% each. I also have a 1200gph return pump but I recirculate part of it back to the inlet of the sump to reduce the noise from my drain pipes. I am guessing I have 700gph between the two corner returns.

I feel my total flow is fine. I worry that flow in the middle of my tank is a little low. I don't want to turn the Vortechs higher because the flow on the sides of the tank is very high already. I don't have rock in the middle of my tank so it may not be an issue. Should I find a small powerhead to put on the back wall and point to the front of the tank or am I ok as is?

 

[helen ann]

Have no clue but love the rock structure!!!

 

[mcarroll]

The best thing you could do for yourself is to run the pumps alternately. As in, put them on timers so only one runs at a time – the other one is off. And then the other one runs while the first one is off.

Out of time for typing. I will have more to add later.

 

[Brew12]

The best thing you could do for yourself is to run the pumps alternately. As in, put them on timers so only one runs at a time – the other one is off. And then the other one runs while the first one is off.

Out of time for typing. I will have more to add later.

I've thought about doing something like that. I do have the wireless option. I know there is a default program that does something along those lines. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of your advice!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Id put a gyre pump on the back wall. It would look slick too. make the L&R variable and surge the gyre.

the first thing is see is how are you going to get flow behind the rock. I cant see the top down to check this of course and if this is what your using the return for. The dead spot I would worry about is there.

My name is jason I am a google image aholic. ....Look at the plans on the top hits.(the rest now are all just product since the release.) Not suggesting gyre to you, Ive looked at a lot of these. gyre tank esp because one day I want a seafan tank and needed to learn mass water flow. But just I like schematics to help visualise the flow.
https://www.google.com/search?q=gyr...YMKHZyZD4oQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=gyre+flow+tank

Scroll down a bit here, hes using a gyre still yes but..... the old school halides are sweet not to mention trapping the sun!!,( i have one of those 150mh btw.) Makes it a really fun great build to see.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1563053
Look at the way he is combining the powerheads for his gyre combined with what appears to be the closed loop returns to add turbulence is masterful.
new school is mp mp(wide heads) w low return from the top. I honestly dont get that. seems like junk is gonna build up behind and under the rocks.

three tubes of flow, laminar, turbulent and surge, in the last 5 years we finally have a simple inexpensive method of surging water, but seemed to have strayed away from trying to keep overall water movement in the tank going by ignoring the natural laminar flow from return to overflow.

So with one flow stream being laminar, you hit it with other flows and create turbulence. In the new school i generally recommend three sources(pH) to do this. as the return is ignored, but the overflow cant be. its all going to go there.

sorry, for some folks a straightforward answer is the best, for some food for thought is the best...

 

[clownin_around]

No idea, but the rockqua scape is neat!

 

[Brew12]

I cant see the top down to check this of course and if this is what your using the return for.

I do have the returns set to point down behind the rocks. Flow isn't great but it is moving.

Not suggesting gyre to you, Ive looked at a lot of these.

I looked at the Gyre's and if they had one that dialed down to around 100gph I would jump at it. I'm worried that the 450gpm minimum rate pointing at a wall less than 18" away will still create too much flow.

sorry, for some folks a straightforward answer is the best, for some food for thought is the best...

I am good with food for thought. Even if I don't adopt all the recommendations I can always learn and maybe glean pieces from it!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I looked at the Gyre's and if they had one that dialed down to around 100gph I would jump at it

I finally got to play with them at the MACNA. the small one is not that powerful. im pretty sure. youl have plenty of time to try to see on in person while it cycles. for now I think your fine.

In my 20x20x18 cube I had a MJ1200 over the top(barrel roll) and two 500 gph (one jet one koralia) and it was perfect. sounds like it should have blown the glass off the tank though.

And paruse that thread, its reef nerd and engineer nerd heaven IMO

 

[ksfulk]

I looked at the Gyre's and if they had one that dialed down to around 100gph I would jump at it. I'm worried that the 450gpm minimum rate pointing at a wall less than 18" away will still create too much flow.

Assuming you have the cash to pop down on a Gyre, you can run them in reverse to dial down the flow significantly - to a point where at 10% the movement is imperceptible. with the combination of paddles, you could make it work, though it may be unconventional - and you would still get the flow patterns that @saltyfilmfolks is suggesting.

 

[mcarroll]

So switching over to what I call tide-flow, using two timers (or equivalent) is good because it keeps the pumps from working against one another.

mp40's have a very short range...depending on the rock and coral layout, a 120g like yours is about the limit for the typical two-on-the-ends approach to flow. It's not surprising to see a dead zone in the middle.

If you're a Vortech fan, slap a third mp40 on the back wall, blowing just above your rocks right into the dead zone. If you're slick, mount all three across the back wall and lose the "what's that on the side of your tank"?

If you're up for change, switch to some Tunze pumps. There are a few variations which would be better than what you have...here are a few:

1. Two Turbelle® stream 6105's. ($570) Much stronger than mp40's. The first time you turn them on, detritus you didn't even know you had will rise up out of your rocks and sand like zombies on the Thriller video.
   Bonus to you: cheaper; easy to hide out of view; possible to hide completely inside a Tunze rock.
2. Two Turbelle® stream 3's. ($690) The new Stream 3. It's built like a tank and it's a flow-monster. Run two of them in an alternating tidal flow with random storms....very nice. "Last pump you'll buy" according to Tunze. Not too expensive, either. Also has a Tunze rock available for hiding, but it's already easy to place out of view.
3. "Simulated Closed Loop" I made up that term just for you. Start with four or six Turbelle® nanostream® 6045's...with or without Tunze rocks. Use in tide simulation with appliance timers. Six is only $468, and that's a lot of flow.
4. There're also the usual controllable models that would be good for consideration: Turbelle® nanostream® 6040, Turbelle® nanostream® 6055 and Turbelle® nanostream® 6095

Any combination of these would be legit as well.

None of these cost any more than your current solution (some significantly cheaper), but every one will deliver better flow.

 

[mcarroll]

I don't know why I just noticed, but I see you have a 125g, not a 120g. (72" long vs 48").

I would have been more emphatic toward switching even if you are a Vortech fan. I'm not sure the 3rd unit would be satisfactory. mp40's effectively have a 2' reach.

The same set of proposed solutions still work.

 

[Joey waid]

I like the gyre idea..

 

[Brew12]

So switching over to what I call tide-flow, using two timers (or equivalent) is good because it keeps the pumps from working against one another.

mp40's have a very short range...depending on the rock and coral layout, a 120g like yours is about the limit for the typical two-on-the-ends approach to flow. It's not surprising to see a dead zone in the middle.

If you're a Vortech fan, slap a third mp40 on the back wall, blowing just above your rocks right into the dead zone. If you're slick, mount all three across the back wall and lose the "what's that on the side of your tank"?

If you're up for change, switch to some Tunze pumps. There are a few variations which would be better than what you have...here are a few:

1. Two Turbelle® stream 6105's. ($570) Much stronger than mp40's. The first time you turn them on, detritus you didn't even know you had will rise up out of your rocks and sand like zombies on the Thriller video.
   Bonus to you: cheaper; easy to hide out of view; possible to hide completely inside a Tunze rock.
2. Two Turbelle® stream 3's. ($690) The new Stream 3. It's built like a tank and it's a flow-monster. Run two of them in an alternating tidal flow with random storms....very nice. "Last pump you'll buy" according to Tunze. Not too expensive, either. Also has a Tunze rock available for hiding, but it's already easy to place out of view.
3. "Simulated Closed Loop" I made up that term just for you. Start with four or six Turbelle® nanostream® 6045's...with or without Tunze rocks. Use in tide simulation with appliance timers. Six is only $468, and that's a lot of flow.
4. There're also the usual controllable models that would be good for consideration: Turbelle® nanostream® 6040, Turbelle® nanostream® 6055 and Turbelle® nanostream® 6095

Any combination of these would be legit as well.

None of these cost any more than your current solution (some significantly cheaper), but every one will deliver better flow.

You have given me a ton to think about. I put some plastic streamers in my water today and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be in the middle. For now, I am going to stick with what I have. I think my long term plan will be to move the MP40's to the back of the tank and run at low flows and put the Nanostream 6095's on each end. For a new reefer I believe I am overthinking this right now.

 

[mcarroll]

It does feel a little crazy!

Flow is probably the most complicated out of all the things we have to get right. There are no real standards and no tools to measure with, even if there were standards.

That means you often start by copying someone else's setup and then seeing if you can make it work for you. Be prepared to experiment!

mp40's and 7095's are both wide-flow pumps. With a long, skinny tank you'd be better off with some pumps that have some reach to them.

I think you are talking hypothetically about the 7095's anyway (correct?)....but if not, I'd swap them for a pair of 6055's. Similar power (and a little cheaper), but more focused so it has about a 4' reach. Much more useful in a long tank.

(For the money you have in them, I would seriously consider selling the mp40's. Looks like they may get you about $300 each based on a quick survey of the Selling Forum (dry goods). $600 will buy you almost all of those Tunze solutions I mentioned, brand-new, including 2 year to 5 year warranties.)

 

[Brew12]

It does feel a little crazy!

Flow is probably the most complicated out of all the things we have to get right. There are no real standards and no tools to measure with, even if there were standards.

That means you often start by copying someone else's setup and then seeing if you can make it work for you.

mp40's and 7095's are both wide-flow pumps. With a long, skinny tank you'd be better off with some pumps that have some reach to them.

I think you are talking hypothetically about the 7095's (correct?) anyway....but if not, I'd swap them for a pair of 6055's. Similar power (and a little cheaper), but more focused so it has about a 4' reach. Much more useful in a long tank.

(For the money you have in them, I would seriously consider selling the mp40's. Looks like they may get you about $300 each based on a quick survey of the Selling Forum (dry goods). $600 will buy you almost all of those Tunze solutions I mentioned, brand-new, including 2 year to 5 year warranties.)

I thought about that. My issue is that with the long skinny tank I can't get good flow in the middle without having crazy high flow on the edges. By going with the wide flow but higher penetration pumps on the edges and using the MP40's in the middle I figured I could get good randomized flow throughout the tank using my Apex and the Vortech controllers without have extreme flows anywhere.

 

[mcarroll]

My issue is that with the long skinny tank I can't get good flow in the middle without having crazy high flow on the edges.

That effect is a result of using wide-flow pumps. You have to turn them up quite high to get any action in the middle at all.

If you happen to have a LFS that will let you, even try one of the little 6045's or 6055's just for the comparison.

Even better: if you can swap in a pair of 6105's in direct place of the mp40's you'd be stunned. And all set for flow. (And possibly even have a little cash left in pocket from the swap.)

I wouldn't spend any energy worrying about the randomness of your flow (or apex control, et al)....all the whiz-bang controls and wave-modes are for you, not the corals. Flow from a propellor pump is pulsating and random by its nature.

If you haven't seen this, you'll like it:

 

[bif24701]

That effect is a result of using wide-flow pumps. You have to turn them up quite high to get any action in the middle at all.

If you happen to have a LFS that will let you, even try one of the little 6045's or 6055's just for the comparison.

Even better: if you can swap in a pair of 6105's in direct place of the mp40's you'd be stunned. And all set for flow. (And possibly even have a little cash left in pocket from the swap.)

I wouldn't spend any energy worrying about the randomness of your flow (or apex control, et al)....all the whiz-bang controls and wave-modes are for you, not the corals. Flow from a propellor pump is pulsating and random by its nature.

If you haven't seen this, you'll like it:

My plan is to actually add two 6105s to my 180 and MP60. With APEX control I should have a good amount of flow

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Me likee Tunzee!

 

[Brew12]

the whiz-bang controls and wave-modes are for you, not the corals.

So much to learn! I thought the wave modes were for the coral. I thought they did better with more randomized flow. I'm really not happy with the MP40W's. I love the safety of not having the motor in the tank but they just make more noise than I care for. I know I can upgrade the controller to cut down on the motor noise but my issue is more with the noise from the magnetic coupling through the glass.

Time to rethink my entire flow strategy... again...

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I think Mcarrol and I will have to disagree a bit. Yea some of it is just sales. But randomness and surge are a good thing Imo..
Not sre about th 40's but most Ph get quieter as the bacteria and alge give them a little coating.