Flukes or ich diagnosis

[sawrip]

Hello,

So my Scorpaenidae pred tank seems to be struggling a little at the moment. A few of the Lions have cloudy eyes and so does my Rhinopias. Today the Radiata Lion has sat directly in front of the powerhead. Now my views is that this is flukes looking at the images of the eye I can almost see them but wanted a second opinion. I have dealt with ich before in the past but cannot make out any dots or marks on the body - only the eyes and they look quite large.

I am in a difficult situation as I've dosed Reeflux a few days ago and it's already started working for my Gha (turned all white) but this will limit any use of Prazipro due to oxygen levels. Can somebody suggest a way out of this mess?

I guess the first step is a freshwater dip on the Radiata Lion and check the bucket?

 

[Reef Wizard]

#fishmedic
How is the breathing rate? I believe Neobenedenia flukes prefer eyes.

Are other spots on fins or other parts of body other than face eyes gills?

They may need white lighting pics.

I will of course let them guide you further

 

[sawrip]

#fishmedic
How is the breathing rate? I believe Neobenedenia flukes prefer eyes.

Are other spots on fins or other parts of body other than face eyes gills?

They may need white lighting pics.

I will of course let them guide you further

Thanks for the reply. I will get some pics in white light shortly. Unable to see any other spots and seems to just be the eyes. One eye on the Rhino is worse than another. I've witnessed yawning and laboured breathing from both the Rhino and the lions

 

[Reef Wizard]

Thanks for the reply. I will get some pics in white light shortly. Unable to see any other spots and seems to just be the eyes. One eye on the Rhino is worse than another. I've witnessed yawning and laboured breathing from both the Rhino and the lions

in that case I believe it to be flukes. yawning and labored breathing with cloudy eyes Three strikes toward them. I have no experience with reeflux but I would personally choose to have GHA a little longer than the detriment of my livestock. Another tank with PraziPro if possible Hypo salinity might be an option but unsure how Lions react to Hypo

Will let the others chime in as my knowledge is limited

 

[nereefpat]

From a disease standpoint, I would dose the Prazi. Run the skimmer, but remove the collection cup, for aeration. Have powerheads/wavemakers pointed at the surface.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hello,

So my Scorpaenidae pred tank seems to be struggling a little at the moment. A few of the Lions have cloudy eyes and so does my Rhinopias. Today the Radiata Lion has sat directly in front of the powerhead. Now my views is that this is flukes looking at the images of the eye I can almost see them but wanted a second opinion. I have dealt with ich before in the past but cannot make out any dots or marks on the body - only the eyes and they look quite large.

I am in a difficult situation as I've dosed Reeflux a few days ago and it's already started working for my Gha (turned all white) but this will limit any use of Prazipro due to oxygen levels. Can somebody suggest a way out of this mess?

I guess the first step is a freshwater dip on the Radiata Lion and check the bucket?

It could be Neobenedenia flukes - they cause cloudy eyes (although the flukes are found all over the fish's skin). If you can give one fish a 5 minute FW dip, you can see them fall off, they look like tiny scales/ovals, usually cloudy white once they die. A FW dip by itself is not a treatment, as this species has eggs that are still in the tank. Prazi doesn't kill the eggs either. I know in some cases, you need to repeat prazi treatments 3 to 5 times in order to break the life cycle. I prefer to run hyposalinity to get rid of these infections. A specific gravity of 1.012 for 30 days works well. Of course, if you have invertebrates in the tank, those would need to be moved out.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

It could be Neobenedenia flukes - they cause cloudy eyes (although the flukes are found all over the fish's skin). If you can give one fish a 5 minute FW dip, you can see them fall off, they look like tiny scales/ovals, usually cloudy white once they die. A FW dip by itself is not a treatment, as this species has eggs that are still in the tank. Prazi doesn't kill the eggs either. I know in some cases, you need to repeat prazi treatments 3 to 5 times in order to break the life cycle. I prefer to run hyposalinity to get rid of these infections. A specific gravity of 1.012 for 30 days works well. Of course, if you have invertebrates in the tank, those would need to be moved out.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply.

I've uploaded some detailed pictures with 100 percent white light and it seems to capture the issue rather well. The lions have swapped places now so the Antanana is in powerhead.

Sadly hyposalinity is not an option at present so it will have to be the Prazipro route. Any thoughts on how best to proceed. My view is a thirty percent water change and run carbon tomorrow for the Reefflux then day after dose Prazi on a three course cycle. I am aware that it can be rendered infective with the biofilm but at present this seems to be my best option. I will also run an airstone in the tank for the duration.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi Jay,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply.

I've uploaded some detailed pictures with 100 percent white light and it seems to capture the issue rather well. The lions have swapped places now so the Antanana is in powerhead.

Sadly hyposalinity is not an option at present so it will have to be the Prazipro route. Any thoughts on how best to proceed. My view is a thirty percent water change and run carbon tomorrow for the Reefflux then day after dose Prazi on a three course cycle. I am aware that it can be rendered infective with the biofilm but at present this seems to be my best option. I will also run an airstone in the tank for the duration.

Did you try a FW dip on one of them?
What about uploading a video?

I'm just concerned that if we go with flukes as the diagnosis without some other collaborating symptom, you could be going in the wrong direction.

Yes - your prazipro treatment seems reasonable - dose it 8 days apart. Run your skimmer, just don't collect any skimmate. Dose for the estimated net volume of the tank, not it gross volume.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Did you try a FW dip on one of them?
What about uploading a video?

I'm just concerned that if we go with flukes as the diagnosis without some other collaborating symptom, you could be going in the wrong direction.

Yes - your prazipro treatment seems reasonable - dose it 8 days apart. Run your skimmer, just don't collect any skimmate. Dose for the estimated net volume of the tank, not it gross volume.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Most certainly agree with you, last thing I want to be doing is medicating for the wrong issue.

So today I plan on doing a FW dip and a video of each of the Lions. I have a good microscope which I use for any Dinoflagellates identification and so hopefully if any fall off in the bucket I'll be able to actually view them.

It's my first doing a FW dip, hopefully won't be too stressful on the Lion, they both look relatively strong and healthy at present.

 

[sawrip]

Hi Jay,

Most certainly agree with you, last thing I want to be doing is medicating for the wrong issue.

So today I plan on doing a FW dip and a video of each of the Lions. I have a good microscope which I use for any Dinoflagellates identification and so hopefully if any fall off in the bucket I'll be able to actually view them.

It's my first doing a FW dip, hopefully won't be too stressful on the Lion, they both look relatively strong and healthy at present.

Hi @Jay Hemdal

Thanks for the advice so far. Can you take a look at these scope images please, this came off my Raidata after a dip. My view is it's a gill fluke but be interesting to see what you make of it.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi @Jay Hemdal

Thanks for the advice so far. Can you take a look at these scope images please, this came off my Raidata after a dip. My view is it's a gill fluke but be interesting to see what you make of it.

That looks like it is a Dactylogyrid fluke. The head would be to the right. They have four eyes. I can see two on one side, the other two may be obscured. The head is also sort of scalloped like in that group. I can't see any anchors at the tail end, but those are tough to see.

Here is the thing though - if Dactylogyrids were the problem, you should have seen a number of these in the dip - just a few may mean that it does have them, but that the symptoms you are seeing are actually caused by something else.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

That looks like it is a Dactylogyrid fluke. The head would be to the right. They have four eyes. I can see two on one side, the other two may be obscured. The head is also sort of scalloped like in that group. I can't see any anchors at the tail end, but those are tough to see.

Here is the thing though - if Dactylogyrids were the problem, you should have seen a number of these in the dip - just a few may mean that it does have them, but that the symptoms you are seeing are actually caused by something else.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Thanks for confirming, so I've dipped both Lions and done over 10 slides of any white specs and can't find another fluke on either. There is certainly no mass drop off and I've uploaded a daylight video of one lion.
This may well be the return of ich in that case and will need to be managed to the best of my ability with UV, feeding and nightly peroxide dosing.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi Jay,

Thanks for confirming, so I've dipped both Lions and done over 10 slides of any white specs and can't find another fluke on either. There is certainly no mass drop off and I've uploaded a daylight video of one lion.
This may well be the return of ich in that case and will need to be managed to the best of my ability with UV, feeding and nightly peroxide dosing.

My typical recommendation is that once you see secondary symptoms (in this case rapid breathing) any sort of "management" of protozoan issues becomes much less likely to work.

Cloudy eyes in scorpions can certainly be a primary symptom of ich, but one concern I have is that rapid breathing is just not a symptom of Ich, until it becomes very advanced, so there could be another cause, or there could be multiple causes at work here.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

My typical recommendation is that once you see secondary symptoms (in this case rapid breathing) any sort of "management" of protozoan issues becomes much less likely to work.

Cloudy eyes in scorpions can certainly be a primary symptom of ich, but one concern I have is that rapid breathing is just not a symptom of Ich, until it becomes very advanced, so there could be another cause, or there could be multiple causes at work here.

Jay

Thanks Jay, will have a think how to proceed here. The video was taken a minute after the freshwater dip so may explain the breathing.

 

[Reef Wizard]

Hi Jay,

Thanks for confirming, so I've dipped both Lions and done over 10 slides of any white specs and can't find another fluke on either. There is certainly no mass drop off and I've uploaded a daylight video of one lion.
This may well be the return of ich in that case and will need to be managed to the best of my ability with UV, feeding and nightly peroxide dosing.

My typical recommendation is that once you see secondary symptoms (in this case rapid breathing) any sort of "management" of protozoan issues becomes much less likely to work.

Cloudy eyes in scorpions can certainly be a primary symptom of ich, but one concern I have is that rapid breathing is just not a symptom of Ich, until it becomes very advanced, so there could be another cause, or there could be multiple causes at work here.

Jay

Looking at the video myself there seems to be a spec on this section of its fins I watched it several times and it moves when fish moves. Not saying it is ICH but just pointing it out.

Im invested now I love lionfish haha Hope you can get them well

 

[sawrip]

Looking at the video myself there seems to be a spec on this section of its fins I watched it several times and it moves when fish moves. Not saying it is ICH but just pointing it out.

Im invested now I love lionfish haha Hope you can get them well

I think you've nailed it, I've just spent sometime observing his fins and can see multiple spots which are attached, further video attached.

 

[sawrip]

So having diagnosed this as ich, can I ask your thoughts @lion king

I've followed your advice and to date and haven't lost a Scorpion fish in my setup so far, they are all thriving and growing well. I feed live usually and water quality is good, little too clean if anything.

What's your experience of losing a healthy active lion due to ich? My view is not to treat and use my oversized uv in the DT and low level peroxide dosing at night to keep parasite numbers in check.

All my other scorpidande types and eel seem totally unaffected at present.

 

[nereefpat]

Are there any inverts in the tank that you care about? Hyposalinity in the display would get ich and flukes.

 

[sawrip]

Are there any inverts in the tank that you care about? Hyposalinity in the display would get ich and flukes.

Sadly so and it's now rather packed with corals. I've done hyposalinity twice but within three to four months it returns sadly. I've used a freshly purchased Redsea refractometer and run it very low at 1.008 for eight weeks lastime. It's also the impact it has with filtration and ph for the extended peroid.

 

[lion king]

So having diagnosed this as ich, can I ask your thoughts @lion king

I've followed your advice and to date and haven't lost a Scorpion fish in my setup so far, they are all thriving and growing well. I feed live usually and water quality is good, little too clean if anything.

What's your experience of losing a healthy active lion due to ich? My view is not to treat and use my oversized uv in the DT and low level peroxide dosing at night to keep parasite numbers in check.

All my other scorpidande types and eel seem totally unaffected at present.

My 1st impression in your post that could be flukes, do you see them swim at the surface or into the flow of powerheads or return, this may point more to flukes. I've never had to intervene with any treatment for ich in an otherwise healthy lion, but if you are also dealing with flukes, that may complicate matters. When dealing with protozoan diseases I've always removed the lion from the infected tank into a pristine observation tank and maintained or included live food, in your case again, more complicated having multiple scorps. For treatment options, hyposalinty is the really the only option for scorps for a protozoan disease. Jay has written a good guide in the sticky portion for hypo, this must be done slowly and carefully, and ammonia must be monitored and maintained closely. As far as flukes go, that's easy, prazi pro dosed to water volume, not tank size, displacement must be considered. I usually dose 2nd dose in 5 days but others may have better recommendations, but the 2nd dose is necessary. If it is flukes you will want to treat the whole tank whether some are unaffected or not. For ich, other than what you are doing, hypo would have to administered. Respond with your thoughts for more options.