Food and po4

[Cory]

I heard Randy say, that when fish eat food it comes out as po4.

Is this true? So a 1mm pellet is adding how much po4 to a 100 gallon tank once a fish eats it?

Or does bacteria need to decompose the fish poo first to make po4?

Confused but really interested

 

[mcarroll]

You can eat food for growth.

Or you can eat for energy.

When you eat for energy, you poop out a lot of excess nutrients.....which contains PO4.

 

[Cory]

You can eat food for growth.

Or you can eat for energy.

When you eat for energy, you poop out a lot of excess nutrients.....which contains PO4.

Yeah but the phosphorus in a fish that isnt growing much is wasted by like 90% iirc. Trying to find that thread

 

[mcarroll]

Didn't know you were just looking for a thread.....sounded like you were asking if it was true.

Is this true?

Have you tried the forum search engine? That would be the best way.

If that doesn't work, you can also include the term "site:reef2reef.com" in a Google search.

 

[mcarroll]

Maybe Phosphate in the Reef Aquarium?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I heard Randy say, that when fish eat food it comes out as po4.

Is this true? So a 1mm pellet is adding how much po4 to a 100 gallon tank once a fish eats it?

Or does bacteria need to decompose the fish poo first to make po4?

Confused but really interested

Both happen. In people it is mostly in urine as inorganic P. Not sure of the relative amounts excreted from as organics and as inorganic P.

I discuss it here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry
Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

 

[Cory]

Both happen. In people it is mostly in urine as inorganic P. Not sure of the relative amounts excreted from as organics and as inorganic P.

I discuss it here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry
Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

That was a good read. Still uncertain if i could put a number on the phosphate accumulated with omega one micropellets. Fish are the first two ingredients though. Not sure if they are bony ones. Would .5% phosphorus min say anything about it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That was a good read. Still uncertain if i could put a number on the phosphate accumulated with omega one micropellets. Fish are the first two ingredients though. Not sure if they are bony ones. Would .5% phosphorus min say anything about it?

It says that 1 gram of that food adds at least 5 mg of phosphorous, or 15 mg of phosphate. It might be far more.

 

[Cory]

It says that 1 gram of that food adds at least 5 mg of phosphorous, or 15 mg of phosphate. It might be far more.

I think you said also that proteins could contribute a lot of phosphorus too no?

Attatched is the limited analysis

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think you said also that proteins could contribute a lot of phosphorus too no?

Attatched is the limited analysis

Yes, the protein is a substantial source, as are other biomolecules such as phospholipids.

 

[Cory]

Yes, the protein is a substantial source, as are other biomolecules such as phospholipids.

You said in your article that boney fish would contain lots of phosphorus because bones are calcium phosphate iirc. Is salmon, halibut, herring and cod all considered boney fish?

 

[Cory]

Yes, the protein is a substantial source, as are other biomolecules such as phospholipids.

Another point confuses me is you say that protein contains phosphate, as moieties, but budding chemists know that they amino acids dont contain phosphate. However your graph is saying that mysis shrimp contain little phosphate but thats confusing because a shrimp is all protein. Is it the amino acid type that delivers phosphate then?

 

[Cory]

I thought this was a big plus to substrate free aquariums:

"
The excess of this mineral in sh diets provides higher levels of excreted P, with this being the main cause of eutrophization in the aquatic environment, impairing water quality (KIM et al., 1998b).

For those who dont know what eutrophication means, it means:

"
eu·troph·i·ca·tion
yo͞oˌträfiˈkāSHən/
noun

1. excessive richness of nutrients in a lake or other body of water, frequently due to runoff from the land, which causes a dense growth of plant life and death of animal life from lack of oxygen."
   
   Here is the full article:ftp://ftp.sp.gov.br/ftppesca/34_4_591-600.pdf

 

[Cory]

Deleted due to my stupidity lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You said in your article that boney fish would contain lots of phosphorus because bones are calcium phosphate iirc. Is salmon, halibut, herring and cod all considered boney fish?

All fish have bones. The sentence was meant to mean fish with bones still in it when added to the food.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Another point confuses me is you say that protein contains phosphate, as moieties, but budding chemists know that they amino acids dont contain phosphate. However your graph is saying that mysis shrimp contain little phosphate but thats confusing because a shrimp is all protein. Is it the amino acid type that delivers phosphate then?

Moving up from intro organic chemistry to the real world (lol), proteins are often phosphorylated. That means phosphate groups are added to the protein by attaching to hydroxyl groups such as on the amino acid serine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_phosphorylation

How much phosphorylation, phospholipids, DNA, RNA, etc are present in the food or organism will impact the phosphate level.

 

[Cory]

Moving up from intro organic chemistry to the real world (lol), proteins are often phosphorylated. That means phosphate groups are added to the protein by attaching to hydroxyl groups such as on the amino acid serine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_phosphorylation

How much phosphorylation, phospholipids, DNA, RNA, etc are present in the food or organism will impact the phosphate level.

Ok thanks. Wasnt finding fault in your article, even if it seemed, I was just trying to understand the hows and whys of mysis being low in P compared to the other foods. Thats very surprising. I haven't taken chemistry or organic chem in school fwiw.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ok thanks. Wasnt finding fault in your article, even if it seemed, I was just trying to understand the hows and whys of mysis being low in P compared to the other foods. Thats very surprising. I haven't taken chemistry or organic chem in school fwiw.

I'm not sure why the mysis is low either, but it came from the product label, so I cannot be sure it is correct.