Freaked out about QT

[Matt Miller]

If my lfs will quarantine, I should be able to skip the copper and tester right? I should still get the internal parasites treatments though right? All safe for using in dt?

 

[cmmatxh]

if they qt for you just ask what’s their qt protocol? they should do both. and yes from what i’ve read Focus makes the metroplex reef safe. garlic power is to mask the medication flavor

 

[MnFish1]

if they qt for you just ask what’s their qt protocol? they should do both. and yes from what i’ve read Focus makes the metroplex reef safe. garlic power is to mask the medication flavor

FOcus is only used to bind the metroplex to food - so focus can only be used if you're mixing metroplex in the food (not in the tank itself)

 

[polyppal]

Maybe I'm freaked out about how much the fish I'm planning on buying. The idea of quarantine is scaring me more than I was just setting this up.

I've never spent this kind of money on fish and I'm afraid of all the treatments and this and that.

I feel like there's more chances to screw up this QT than I want to risk.

How many of you don't QT at all?

QT and the thought of using copper and other products is not as intimidating as it sounds. People think copper treatments are actively hurting/damaging the fish, but it takes quite a bit of negligence to 'poison' most fish with copper power.

I think many of the fish that die in QT do so because they are already battling parasites or bacterial infections, not the medicines that are introduced to help them fight the disease...

My keys to success with QT are to carefully follow proven methods, and try to alleviate as much stress on the fish as possible to enable their system to fight disease and recuperate. Has been very successful to me - vs - dump & pray disasters in the past!

 

[polyppal]

Should I pitch the cupramine and get copper power?
Is there anything else I need to treat for or is the copper enough?

I'm really stressed about starting this qt

Copper power is more gentle on fish than Cupramine. Prob 90% would go with Copper Power

How to Quarantine

How to Quarantine The purpose of this article is to present an argument for quarantining saltwater fish, and then show the reader how to setup a Quarantine Tank (QT) and discuss quarantine protocols. Why quarantine? Setting up a QT does not...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Marco S]

I've been QTing fish, coral, inverts and Anemones religiously for a bit over 2 years now so I know a bit. Not as much as some of the experts on the Fish Disease Forum...but a bit.

I use Copper Power and test with a Hannah Checker and all new fish get 14 days in copper once I hit the therapeutic level, (You need a checker if you want to do it right). Then they are transferred into a clean tank for PraziPro and then observation for another 15 - 20 days. If any other signs show up I treat those as well. I keep Metroplex and Focus, API General Cure and Furan2 on hand at all times as well.

All my coral get dipped and then 76 days in a coral only QT and then dipped again before going into my display and all my inverts get there own QT for 76 days. My Anemones get 16 days in the coral QT in a basket at the top of the tank. I even QT'd the Algae for my refugium. ;Happy

The good news is that my main tank is and has been disease free from the very start, but the bad news is that I have spent a bunch of time, effort and money on QT and I lost several fish that maybe would have made it without QT...but I also would have had Velvet, Ich, Urinoma and Flukes because I have dealt with all of those on several occasions during QT so it is a necessary evil IMO.

Good luck with your QT and ask lots of questions in the Disease Forum. There are some serious experts answering questions there.

 

[Jeffcb]

Maybe I'm freaked out about how much the fish I'm planning on buying. The idea of quarantine is scaring me more than I was just setting this up.

I've never spent this kind of money on fish and I'm afraid of all the treatments and this and that.

I feel like there's more chances to screw up this QT than I want to risk.

How many of you don't QT at all?

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

Float for 20 mins. I just put them in there. That's it.

 

[cmmatxh]

I've been QTing fish, coral, inverts and Anemones religiously for a bit over 2 years now so I know a bit. Not as much as some of the experts on the Fish Disease Forum...but a bit.

I use Copper Power and test with a Hannah Checker and all new fish get 14 days in copper once I hit the therapeutic level, (You need a checker if you want to do it right). Then they are transferred into a clean tank for PraziPro and then observation for another 15 - 20 days. If any other signs show up I treat those as well. I keep Metroplex and Focus, API General Cure and Furan2 on hand at all times as well.

All my coral get dipped and then 76 days in a coral only QT and then dipped again before going into my display and all my inverts get there own QT for 76 days. My Anemones get 16 days in the coral QT in a basket at the top of the tank. I even QT'd the Algae for my refugium. ;Happy

The good news is that my main tank is and has been disease free from the very start, but the bad news is that I have spent a bunch of time, effort and money on QT and I lost several fish that maybe would have made it without QT...but I also would have had Velvet, Ich, Urinoma and Flukes because I have dealt with all of those on several occasions during QT so it is a necessary evil IMO.

Good luck with your QT and ask lots of questions in the Disease Forum. There are some serious experts answering questions there.

how do you qt inverts

 

[Macbalacano]

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

Float for 20 mins. I just put them in there. That's it.

You should definitely read this thread. Excellent discussion on alternatives to QT.

 

[davidcalgary29]

You should definitely read this thread. Excellent discussion on alternatives to QT.

I could only get through about ten out of the hundred and twenty-eight odd pages of that thread. Wow!

The fundamental problem with the quarantineless method here -- if I understood it correctly -- is that it presumes that the owner has a mature, fully established tank into which he or she will insert a random fish. Other organisms, which have grown and developed over the course of years, will prey upon any dangerous pathogens introduced into the tank and keep numbers low to the point that they won't kill any inhabitants. It's an exciting, plausible theory...and probably of little utility to new tank owners eager to buy their first fish and who don't have a ten-year old tank with all of its associated flora and fauna. It also assumes that owners can hop down to the ocean to seed their tanks with "helpful" bacteria and viruses; I certainly don't have access to a beach or ocean, and won't be able to dig into the garden to get some soil until the snow melts three months from now, but that shouldn't stop others who want to try it.

Problem #2: going without QT won't help you with nuisance pests like aiptasia. Or fireworms. The thought of going au naturel definitely has its charms, but I don't want a garden of majanos in my tanks, either.

Problem #3: While going quarantineless sounds easy -- hey, it's totally hands-off!-- the success stories are largely people who started their tanks many years ago and may have been able to establish super-healthy biomes by buying live rocks and such that were populated with disease-fighting fauna. Many reefers make their builds with dry rock now. Can the same effects be achieved?

Problem #4: the feeding schedules and menus the proponents use for feeding their fish looks kind of complicated. And expensive! I know that this is just good husbandry, and great for the fish, but aside from frozen fish and clams at the supermarket, I don't have access to any of those specialized foods. Just try to source California blackworms in Canada!

Biggest problem: not one proponent has explained how to replicate their successes by following a formula or plan using a precise list of ingredients and livestock: you're just supposed to "introduce your fish to disease so that their immune responses can be stimulated/strengthened". And I'm sorry, but that assumption is kind of suspect -- we don't encourage repeated scabies infections in humans, or mange in dogs and cats, because "it will build up our immune systems"; those afflictions are painful and horrible and in pets, sometimes deadly. I can't think why encouraging ectoparasitism in fish will somehow lead to better health. Again, this method might work only because mature tanks have biota that have grown to prey on the predators. In contrast, quarantining has discrete steps and stages that can be understood, and replicated, by anyone.

And until someone can provide a precise, step-by-step guide on establishing a disease-free (or disease resistant) quarantineless tank, that can be replicated by using the scientific method, it's all just guesswork or luck. And I for one don't have a lot of the latter when it comes to reefing.

I guess that I'm just saying that buying two five gallon buckets, a couple of airstones, some HOB filters, and cheap heaters will probably work for you too...until your tank matures and builds up a disease-fighting biome.

 

[Tamberav]

I have the tank and stuff but don't have the treatments. I think I'm just worried about messing up the parameters in the QT right now as I'm pretty new to saltwater and just got my dt cycled.

I can get a Hannah copper checker and some copper power, will that be enough plus something else for parasites?



Sorry about your clown, is there anything in particular you recommend for internal parasites?

Copper does not treat brook so you would need metroplex if you want to cover that. You would also need general cure for a food soak for internal parasites and prazi for flukes. Don’t toss all the meds in at once.

I would cycle the tank before you get the clowns... grab some biospira and that should get it going. Copper does not kill the bacteria... it just makes it less efficient. A cycled tank helps take ammonia poisoning out of the equation.

 

[homer1475]

I may against the grain here.......

I stopped loosing fish when I stopped QT'ing. I lost more fish during QT then I ever have with plop and drop.

 

[Tamberav]

If my lfs will quarantine, I should be able to skip the copper and tester right? I should still get the internal parasites treatments though right? All safe for using in dt?

I would never trust a LFS to properly QT that wasn’t one that specializes in it.

They often run subtheraputic copper and probably don’t even treat for brook. It’s also easy to cross contaminate if you have tons of tanks in a store.

If you want to skip your own QT.. use dr reef or TSM or such. QT is their specialty.

 

[MnFish1]

I would never trust a LFS to properly QT that wasn’t one that specializes in it.

They often run subtheraputic copper and probably don’t even treat for brook. It’s also easy to cross contaminate if you have tons of tanks in a store.

If you want to skip your own QT.. use dr reef or TSM or such. QT is their specialty.

Of course - the LFS that quarantines has to know what they are doing - my LFS has a 'quarantine room' - where you can go look at fish under quarantine - and then pick them - and go get them a month later. I think this type of thing is becoming more and more common - as people are having fish die. Its better for the LFS to sell healthy fish - than have people go to the internet and pay a lower price - but then QT all of their stuff alone.

 

[MnFish1]

I could only get through about ten out of the hundred and twenty-eight odd pages of that thread. Wow!

The fundamental problem with the quarantineless method here -- if I understood it correctly -- is that it presumes that the owner has a mature, fully established tank into which he or she will insert a random fish. Other organisms, which have grown and developed over the course of years, will prey upon any dangerous pathogens introduced into the tank and keep numbers low to the point that they won't kill any inhabitants. It's an exciting, plausible theory...and probably of little utility to new tank owners eager to buy their first fish and who don't have a ten-year old tank with all of its associated flora and fauna. It also assumes that owners can hop down to the ocean to seed their tanks with "helpful" bacteria and viruses; I certainly don't have access to a beach or ocean, and won't be able to dig into the garden to get some soil until the snow melts three months from now, but that shouldn't stop others who want to try it.

Problem #2: going without QT won't help you with nuisance pests like aiptasia. Or fireworms. The thought of going au naturel definitely has its charms, but I don't want a garden of majanos in my tanks, either.

Problem #3: While going quarantineless sounds easy -- hey, it's totally hands-off!-- the success stories are largely people who started their tanks many years ago and may have been able to establish super-healthy biomes by buying live rocks and such that were populated with disease-fighting fauna. Many reefers make their builds with dry rock now. Can the same effects be achieved?

Problem #4: the feeding schedules and menus the proponents use for feeding their fish looks kind of complicated. And expensive! I know that this is just good husbandry, and great for the fish, but aside from frozen fish and clams at the supermarket, I don't have access to any of those specialized foods. Just try to source California blackworms in Canada!

Biggest problem: not one proponent has explained how to replicate their successes by following a formula or plan using a precise list of ingredients and livestock: you're just supposed to "introduce your fish to disease so that their immune responses can be stimulated/strengthened". And I'm sorry, but that assumption is kind of suspect -- we don't encourage repeated scabies infections in humans, or mange in dogs and cats, because "it will build up our immune systems"; those afflictions are painful and horrible and in pets, sometimes deadly. I can't think why encouraging ectoparasitism in fish will somehow lead to better health. Again, this method might work only because mature tanks have biota that have grown to prey on the predators. In contrast, quarantining has discrete steps and stages that can be understood, and replicated, by anyone.

And until someone can provide a precise, step-by-step guide on establishing a disease-free (or disease resistant) quarantineless tank, that can be replicated by using the scientific method, it's all just guesswork or luck. And I for one don't have a lot of the latter when it comes to reefing.

I guess that I'm just saying that buying two five gallon buckets, a couple of airstones, some HOB filters, and cheap heaters will probably work for you too...until your tank matures and builds up a disease-fighting biome.

imho - the secret to this 'method' - is not the biome. Plenty of people have established tanks - and then have wipe-outs after adding a sick fish (from velvet, etc). I think the secret of this 'method' is a low stocking density as well as the reverse under gravel filter. I personally do not QT - but I buy healthy fish from a known supplier. I have not lost a fish for years. I think a big part of the problem people are having lately - is that they are buying cheaply from the internet - fish that are stressed and sick, etc. But thats just my opinion there are several ways to 'skin a cat'

 

[davidcalgary29]

imho - the secret to this 'method' - is not the biome. Plenty of people have established tanks - and then have wipe-outs after adding a sick fish (from velvet, etc). I think the secret of this 'method' is a low stocking density as well as the reverse under gravel filter. I personally do not QT - but I buy healthy fish from a known supplier. I have not lost a fish for years. I think a big part of the problem people are having lately - is that they are buying cheaply from the internet - fish that are stressed and sick, etc. But thats just my opinion there are several ways to 'skin a cat'

Yes, when I had my first tanks fifteen years ago, I didn't quarantine either...and only lost my fish when my DT burst in the middle of the night, and not to disease. But disease certainly seemed to be less common in stores; perhaps changes in wholesalers' practices since then have made them much more of a widespread problem? In any case, until someone comes up with workable methodology for a quarantineless approach, you'd just be telling a newcomer to grope around in the dark. And then, probably, blame them for not doing it "right" when the predictable crash ensues.

Again, I'm not suggesting that going quarantineless wouldn't work over the long run. But quarantining has been proven to work with repeated tests that can be replicated by anyone, despite some losses that might occur during the process. Proof vs. guesswork and luck wins the argument for me, and especially with new tanks.

General takeaway for me from the discussion: quarantineless approach can work for some people, some of the time (precise method unknown). Going with QT can work for everyone, almost all of the time (precise method known).

 

[Lucas815]

Do you guys systematically treat any new fish, regardless of it's state?

If it's active, eating well, and does not show any physical sign of disease, would you still medicate?

 

[davidcalgary29]

Do you guys systematically treat any new fish, regardless of it's state?

If it's active, eating well, and does not show any physical sign of disease, would you still medicate?

Medicate, no. Treat? (e.g. methylene blue), yes. Quarantine? yes.

 

[Matt Miller]

Copper does not treat brook so you would need metroplex if you want to cover that. You would also need general cure for a food soak for internal parasites and prazi for flukes. Don’t toss all the meds in at once.

I would cycle the tank before you get the clowns... grab some biospira and that should get it going. Copper does not kill the bacteria... it just makes it less efficient. A cycled tank helps take ammonia poisoning out of the equation.

I do have rock, foam and a bag o supplies soaking in my dt right now waiting to start a qt.
I'm just terrified of the thought of another tank I need to monitor and dose.....it's a lot to take in.

Right now I've got 4 snails and a peppermint shrimp in my dt that have been active and all seem healthy for a week now. I may have upset the qt idea with them already idk...

 

[Macbalacano]

I could only get through about ten out of the hundred and twenty-eight odd pages of that thread. Wow!

The fundamental problem with the quarantineless method here -- if I understood it correctly -- is that it presumes that the owner has a mature, fully established tank into which he or she will insert a random fish. Other organisms, which have grown and developed over the course of years, will prey upon any dangerous pathogens introduced into the tank and keep numbers low to the point that they won't kill any inhabitants. It's an exciting, plausible theory...and probably of little utility to new tank owners eager to buy their first fish and who don't have a ten-year old tank with all of its associated flora and fauna. It also assumes that owners can hop down to the ocean to seed their tanks with "helpful" bacteria and viruses; I certainly don't have access to a beach or ocean, and won't be able to dig into the garden to get some soil until the snow melts three months from now, but that shouldn't stop others who want to try it.

Problem #2: going without QT won't help you with nuisance pests like aiptasia. Or fireworms. The thought of going au naturel definitely has its charms, but I don't want a garden of majanos in my tanks, either.

Problem #3: While going quarantineless sounds easy -- hey, it's totally hands-off!-- the success stories are largely people who started their tanks many years ago and may have been able to establish super-healthy biomes by buying live rocks and such that were populated with disease-fighting fauna. Many reefers make their builds with dry rock now. Can the same effects be achieved?

Problem #4: the feeding schedules and menus the proponents use for feeding their fish looks kind of complicated. And expensive! I know that this is just good husbandry, and great for the fish, but aside from frozen fish and clams at the supermarket, I don't have access to any of those specialized foods. Just try to source California blackworms in Canada!

Biggest problem: not one proponent has explained how to replicate their successes by following a formula or plan using a precise list of ingredients and livestock: you're just supposed to "introduce your fish to disease so that their immune responses can be stimulated/strengthened". And I'm sorry, but that assumption is kind of suspect -- we don't encourage repeated scabies infections in humans, or mange in dogs and cats, because "it will build up our immune systems"; those afflictions are painful and horrible and in pets, sometimes deadly. I can't think why encouraging ectoparasitism in fish will somehow lead to better health. Again, this method might work only because mature tanks have biota that have grown to prey on the predators. In contrast, quarantining has discrete steps and stages that can be understood, and replicated, by anyone.

And until someone can provide a precise, step-by-step guide on establishing a disease-free (or disease resistant) quarantineless tank, that can be replicated by using the scientific method, it's all just guesswork or luck. And I for one don't have a lot of the latter when it comes to reefing.

I guess that I'm just saying that buying two five gallon buckets, a couple of airstones, some HOB filters, and cheap heaters will probably work for you too...until your tank matures and builds up a disease-fighting biome.

Thanks for the summary and perspective, I really appreciate it!

I guess my biggest issues with QT procedure is the following:

1. The way I understood it is that you really should be QT'ing everything (including corals, inverts) for 76 days. Meaning you need to have 1 QT for fish and 1 QT for inverts and corals. Also, you really need to pay attention to not cross contaminate. So either you have 2 sets of some tools/equipment or you wash and dry things constantly. I think my issue with this is (as the OP is concerned about) is it is a LOT of work and a lot of extra equipment. You just went from 1 tank to 3 tanks.
   
   
2. My personal experience when I started was I lost a lot of fish due to ich and bacterial disease. Then I started doing QT procedure to a T (pun intended). However, I still had the same amount of losses. Its just this time they seem to be dying from stress.

I did more research and talked to more people and have started purchasing fish from a different LFS where they look much healthier and I've had much greater success.

I agree that QT procedure is like a recipe book that is easier to follow to replicate success. Whereas trying to do it a 'different' way such as ich management is more of an 'art' with many different variables that can affect success. Many of which we are still not sure of.

I'm contemplating an upgrade in the future and I still haven't decided on which approach I'll go with for the future. I'm constantly trying to read/discuss with others. Thank you again for your insight!