Frog Spawn and other corals slowly dying

[MomSaysNo]

Hello Folks,

I have a small GSP, Frog Spawn and two other corals I don't know the names of that seem to be slowly dying.

Salinity 0.026 (refractometer)
Nitrate .5ppm
Nitrite .25
Phosphate .25
Calcium 460
Alkalinity 8.2
PH 8.2
Temp 79.4 - 80 (it fluctuates a bit cause the weather is up and down here. Makes it hard to keep the house at a certain temp.)

The tank is about 4 months old, but doing very well. I even have a blue hippo tang that is thriving.
I have 6 fish
2 Clowns
1 Blue Hippo
1 Pajama Cardinal
1 Goby
1 Royal Gramma

I run a protein skimmer in a sump constantly that is also full of live rock and charcoal in the drain section. UV Sterilizer installed as well.

The tank is 170gal with a 40gal sump and I just did a 50gal water change but nothing seems to be doing any better. I am starting to wonder if the issue is my lighting.. though I've seen these same corals thrive in this lighting a month or two ago. I have a leather that is doing well and a large GSP doing well.. but the small GSP and Frog Spawn are struggling and I cannot figure out why. I've spent several hundred dollars on Hanna instruments recently to check all parameters accurately and everything is within recommended ranges.

I did have a mandarin disappear in the tank a few weeks ago that I am sure if dead. I am waiting on my ammonia instrument to arrive, but the standard color vile test was yellow. I had a large hair algae outbreak during cycling and used some H2O2 to treat, but everything seemed to come back to full health after that.

Does anyone have any idea what might be choking them out?? What am I doing wrong?

 

[MomSaysNo]

I would go with the simplest route, add more live rock (if possible check and see if your local store has pieces from a teardown, or check with other local reefers with established tanks to see if they have any extra, or look for a local tear down), do some water changes, start testing on a regular basis, verify you are testing correctly and if a piece of equipment you are using is something that requires regular calibration do so, log your parameters to monitor swings (a single snapshot in time doesn't offer much info unless something is way off), get your husbandry down, don't add any more corals (for now) at least until you see what you have that's alive start to perk up and stop adding dosing a bunch of random things; it's only adding layers of complexity that is unneeded at this point in time.

I've kept little pico tanks on simple water changes alone, no skimmer, no heater, a couple of sexy shrimp, tiny goby, some softies on the rubble they came on, and a little hob filter for minimal flow. Too quickly everyone wants to jump to complicated solutions for complicated problems when the solution is simply giving your tank time and learning more about the basics of reef keeping in practice vs paper.

I wouldn't overly focus on Nitrates or phosphates, feeding corals, or anything outside of the most basic things to keep your fish healthy and letting your tank & husbandry skills mature. Often the best solution to a problem in reefing is knowing when it's time to keep our hands out of the tank.

If you want to go a little extra and you 100% don't need ro/di but it's good to know the source of the water you are making up your SW is good, but not needed

Looking like you are using used equipment, is all your equipment in good shape (no electrical issues from heaters, or pumps leaking into the tank). Is your heater big enough for your tank (based on your temp swing comment). How are you doing your water changes, how frequently, are you heating the water to match your tank? Think of all the things that could be adding "shock or instability to the system" The all-around goal is stability. You'd be surprised at the wide range of acceptable parameters things will adapt to as long as they aren't swinging all over the place.

Thank you for the thorough response!

Are you suggesting more live wrong for inside the tank? The drain compartment of my sump (about 1/3 of a 40gal tank) is about 1/2 full of small pieces of live rock to catch debris in the water and hold it for the bacteria to tale care of. (Pictures below) Would you still suggest more live rock for the tank itself?

When I change water, I do use RO/DI water. I put a couple of power heads in a large container along with a few heaters and let the water mix for an hour or two. Then I check alkalinity and calcium to make sure they are in a good range. Once the temperature of the water is very close to what the tank is, I'll pour it in.

This is my first water change for this tank. The guys who helped me build the filtration system told me that it would be sufficient enough that I would only have to do it every 6 months or so. The water I changed was very clean. It had almost no color to it and didn't smell. But I am wondering if that was sound advice now or not.

The only used equipment I am using is the tank itself. All heaters, powerheads, the pump and the Skimmer were bought brand new. The sump tank was used as well, but the tanks were cleaned extensively.

I will start logging my parameters. I haven't been doing that, but it is a good idea so I can see what fluctuating. Thank you so much for your input! The truth is, I suck at being patient. There is a long learning curve to this hobby.

 

[Spare time]

Tanks dims are 48" X 24X" 30"
The lights are Nicrew 150 Watt HyperReef LEDs

What setting are you using? I am assuming you have 2?

 

[MomSaysNo]

What setting are you using? I am assuming you have 2?

I was running them at 100% white.. I've since been educated and now I am running them on blue at about 20%. Though I think I discovered the reason today.. My Ammonia Hanna tester showed up today... Whatever happened in the tank killed two clowns that disappeared and all my copepods. My ammonia is at 3.0ppm. I have no idea how anything in there is alive. SO I will be addressing that tomorrow.. LOL

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Corals really only use blue and violet spectrums. White light has blue in it but not nearly as much as a pure blue led. It’s quite possible they are not getting enough light.

This is more than likely the case. I run the same lights on a 48x24x24, 8" off the water and the par numbers with 100% blue and 100% white maxed out in the lower 1/3 of the tank is lower than you think.

 

[MomSaysNo]

This is more than likely the case. I run the same lights on a 48x24x24, 8" off the water and the par numbers with 100% blue and 100% white maxed out in the lower 1/3 of the tank is lower than you think.

Oh... that is interesting.. I thought I might be burning my corals.. but it sounds like we might need them on 100% then?

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Oh... that is interesting.. I thought I might be burning my corals.. but it sounds like we might need them on 100% then?

That's a video from when I tried out my par meter. Those Nicrews are at 100 percent on both channels in my tank. You having a 30" high, you have lower numbers. I fix planes for a living, so excuse my crappy video skills.

 

[MomSaysNo]

That's a video from when I tried out my par meter. Those Nicrews are at 100 percent on both channels in my tank. You having a 30" high, you have lower numbers. I fix planes for a living, so excuse my crappy video skills.

Geez that is a big drop! Where do you want your PAR at then? What is ideal? That is hilarious! I work with helicopters for a living. Aerospace is where its at!

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Geez that is a big drop! Where do you want your PAR at then? What is ideal? That is hilarious! I work with helicopters for a living. Aerospace is where its at!

That I can't answer as it depends on what your growing.

 

[Spare time]

I was running them at 100% white.. I've since been educated and now I am running them on blue at about 20%. Though I think I discovered the reason today.. My Ammonia Hanna tester showed up today... Whatever happened in the tank killed two clowns that disappeared and all my copepods. My ammonia is at 3.0ppm. I have no idea how anything in there is alive. SO I will be addressing that tomorrow.. LOL

Oh wow. Thats a lot of ammonia lol. I think I would do a few thing.


1. Add filter socks and swap them every few days.


2. Add a whole bottle of biospira or other cycling bacteria.

3. Add a phosphate remover.

 

[MomSaysNo]

Oh wow. Thats a lot of ammonia lol. I think I would do a few thing.


1. Add filter socks and swap them every few days.


2. Add a whole bottle of biospira or other cycling bacteria.

3. Add a phosphate remover.

Unfortunately my sump doesn't have a place for filter socks.. I may need to get creative with some rubberbands... I just ordered some more phosphate down and was planning to try and pick up an incredibly large bottle of TurboStart today but I don't think my LFS has it. Kinda live in the country.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Unfortunately my sump doesn't have a place for filter socks.. I may need to get creative with some rubberbands... I just ordered some more phosphate down and was planning to try and pick up an incredibly large bottle of TurboStart today but I don't think my LFS has it. Kinda live in the country.

You need this to begin using socks, attaches to the rim of your sump. What have you been using for filtration up to this point?

 

[MomSaysNo]

You need this to begin using socks, attaches to the rim of your sump. What have you been using for filtration up to this point?

My sump is just a 40gal tank underneath. Its not a standard sump with an area built in for socks. I may just need to rubberband them around the drain pipes. I'll play with it. I bought some a while back to try it.

For filtration I have about 6 medium sized bags of charcoal pellets on top of about 30-40lbs of live rock in the first 1/3rd of the sump. The second compartment is for the skimmer and the third obviously for the return. I had about $200 worth of copepods in the live rock section as well. I am not sure how many are in there now though, if any. Sounds like the tank may not be mature enough for them yet. Its about 4-5 months old.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

So I'd highly suggest ordering a sock holder to start, and some mesh socks (easier to clean). You need some sort of mechanical filtration, especially for a tank that's as new as yours. I wouldn't be shocked if your sump is a huge detritus trap, thus the ammonia issues.

Eh, imho the copepods can live and thrive but not with those ammonia numbers. I keep about 10 pounds of rock in my sump and rotate a piece in about once a week for the copepods to constantly seed the display. Seemes to work for the wrasses.

 

[MomSaysNo]

So I'd highly suggest ordering a sock holder to start, and some mesh socks (easier to clean). You need some sort of mechanical filtration, especially for a tank that's as new as yours. I wouldn't be shocked if your sump is a huge detritus trap, thus the ammonia issues.

Eh, imho the copepods can live and thrive but not with those ammonia numbers. I keep about 10 pounds of rock in my sump and rotate a piece in about once a week for the copepods to constantly seed the display. Seemes to work for the wrasses.

Thats a really good idea on the copepods... I plan to get in there and dig through my sump today to see how things look. When I peek in there, it seems even cleaner than the display, but who knows whats at the bottom of that rock. I appreciate the input!

 

[tranceFusion]

Are you saying you’ve only changed your water once in 4 months? You probably have low alk and no calcium or other elements. I do a water change every 10 days or so. Start changing the water to replenish trace elements, get the ammonia under control, crank up those blue lights.

 

[Mikosreef]

Are you using RO/DI water?

If not i would start there.

If you are, i would remove any coral from the tank (most look dead or nearly dead) into a smaller tank or plastic tote that can hold water, and use the nicrew blue only for that bucket/tote with a circulation pump.

For the main tank, do a blackout/no lights for at least 30 days while doing regular water changes. Continue to feed the fish and get some snails as a cleanup crew.

Once the tank stabilizes, add back the corals and light.

*Also do water changes for the tote that has the corals on a weekly basis.

 

[Mikosreef]

Also do water changes for the tote that has the corals on a weekly basis.

 

[FishGeist]

my .02 cents...

Add a refugium if you can in the sump..

Get some chaeto from Algae Barn and a cheap plant grow bulb from a big box store. Use a peice of solid color arcrylic and split your return to divi up a small section for a refugum. Move some of that live rock out of the way to felicitate the new refugium section.

No filter socks? I would definitely run those.

In sum, your problem is your sump.....

 

[MomSaysNo]

Are you saying you’ve only changed your water once in 4 months? You probably have low alk and no calcium or other elements. I do a water change every 10 days or so. Start changing the water to replenish trace elements, get the ammonia under control, crank up those blue lights.

YEs, the guys who sold me the sump told me I wouldn't need to do water changes very often.. LOL. I have a different understanding now. The traces actually weren't too bad. I did dose with Calcium and Carbonate to bring those ranges back to a healthy amount. But I think a water change is still necessary.

 

[MomSaysNo]

Are you using RO/DI water?

If not i would start there.

If you are, i would remove any coral from the tank (most look dead or nearly dead) into a smaller tank or plastic tote that can hold water, and use the nicrew blue only for that bucket/tote with a circulation pump.

For the main tank, do a blackout/no lights for at least 30 days while doing regular water changes. Continue to feed the fish and get some snails as a cleanup crew.

Once the tank stabilizes, add back the corals and light.

*Also do water changes for the tote that has the corals on a weekly basis.

YEs, I do use RO/DI water from a local water store and I double check calcium and alkalinity before putting water in. I also warm the water to what the tank is at or very close