From Durso To Herbie

[Wavemode]

I have the Tunze Osmolator 3155 and a 5 gallon reservoir. I can see exactly what your talking about here. In my specific scenario I definitely need the emergency drain to be on line. My 50 gallon rimless could handle what's in the pump chamber of the sump but it sure couldn't handle the 5 gallon reservoir.

 

[gcrawford]

Tunze Osmolator.... granted it will stop after about 5 minutes I believe.

 

[hart24601]

I wanted to say that while my custom external overflow tanks, a 180 and 120, have an emergency drain I set up the sumps so there isn't enough water to ever overflow enough to hit that point similar to what is being talked about.

No the pump won't burn up, it does sit in water and just cavitates. No risk imo. Granted I have only had it do this when testing by blocking the drain myself.

 

[gcrawford]

No ATO?

 

[TheEngineer]

I wanted to say that while my custom external overflow tanks, a 180 and 120, have an emergency drain I set up the sumps so there isn't enough water to ever overflow enough to hit that point similar to what is being talked about.

No the pump won't burn up, it does sit in water and just cavitates. No risk imo. Granted I have only had it do this when testing by blocking the drain myself.

And when it happens while you aren't home and does this for hours? Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Yes. You can risk your house on it, but I really don't like people passing on anecdotes as though they are truth when it creates a risk for others. So because you blocked your drain with your hand, you are comfortable saying there is "No risk"?

I've never gotten electrocuted by standing in shower with a hair dryer on. You're totally safe. Want me to recommend it for you to save time in the morning getting ready?

 

[ReeferBob]

And when it happens while you aren't home and does this for hours? Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Yes. You can risk your house on it, but don't I really don't like people passing on anecdotes as though they are truth when it creates a risk for others. So because you blocked your drain with your hand, you are comfortable saying there is "No risk"?

Before I had an ATO I used to forget to top up my sump on my old 40B about 5 years ago all the time. It ran for 2 days once with very little water in it. Never seemed to have any effect on the pump or anything. I think you are being over-cautious. I don't think it is even possible for these style impeller pumps to catch fire. Although I suspect you could find anecdotal evidence to the contrary . We know the pump itself can run with the impeller not spinning (that is usually how these ultimately fail) and it doesn't do anything. Even if the impeller were to run totally dry I would suspect it would burn out and seize up before it created enough heat to cause a fire. And again, it is sitting in a pool of water. I feel more than comfortable with a Herbie setup. It is tried and true and again, I have never heard of a fire caused by a Herbie setup.

Maybe I will stick an old pump in a bucket, let the water evaporate out, and see what happens and how long it runs with no water.

 

[TheEngineer]

Before I had an ATO I used to forget to top up my sump on my old 40B about 5 years ago all the time. It ran for 2 days once with very little water in it. Never seemed to have any effect on the pump or anything. I think you are being over-cautious. I don't think it is even possible for these style impeller pumps to catch fire. Although I suspect you could find anecdotal evidence to the contrary . We know the pump itself can run with the impeller not spinning (that is usually how these ultimately fail) and it doesn't do anything. Even if the impeller were to run totally dry I would suspect it would burn out and seize up before it created enough heat to cause a fire. And again, it is sitting in a pool of water. I feel more than comfortable with a Herbie setup. It is tried and true and again, I have never heard of a fire caused by a Herbie setup.

Maybe I will stick an old pump in a bucket, let the water evaporate out, and see what happens and how long it runs with no water.

That all sounds great. Doing those things in your own house, risking your own property. Maybe keep those things to yourself instead of suggesting others take the risks you're comfortable with. Or be upfront about the fact that what you are proposing has risks. To simply state that you've tried something one time and that is all the proof you need is dangerous. Am I being overly cautious? Absolutely! Aside from my fish, I also have a dog. Let's say on the minuscule chance the pump overheats, melts some plastic, the plastic wears away the electrical wiring and a fire starts. No one is home, my house burns down and my dog is now dead. Happy that you told me a pump would never catch fire?

You may be trying to defend your stance because you are embarrassed that you didn't think of some elements or you are too entrenched now to stop, but that's not my intention. I learned by making mistakes and I learned by hearing about other people's mistakes. You have proposed things that are great, such as having a sump that can handle all backflow from your tank. You have proposed some things that are bad, like you don't need to worry about a backup drain because your tank didn't overflow when you emptied your return chamber without a working drain.

I'm not sure where you got the idea I was against a Herbie style drain, quite the contrary. I run one on my system.

 

[ReeferBob]

Also for those of us with a reef controller, it is a simple matter to set up a float switch that activated a shutdown when it was in an open position. So you'd put that switch low in the return chamber and when/if the water level went below it, the controller would shut down the return pump (or anything else you wanted to do).

 

[TheEngineer]

Also for those of us with a reef controller, it is a simple matter to set up a float switch that activated a shutdown when it was in an open position. So you'd put that switch low in the return chamber and when/if the water level went below it, the controller would shut down the return pump (or anything else you wanted to do).

Also a good suggestion. Float valves do tend to stick though, so you need to make sure you keep them clean. The ultimate for every element of our systems would be if they will naturally go to a safe state when something stops working. That's incredibly hard to do though. Physics always works, but electronics not so much. So if there's a way to make your system go to a safe state when something fails using nothing but gravity, you're in great shape.

 

[hart24601]

And when it happens while you aren't home and does this for hours? Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Yes. You can risk your house on it, but I really don't like people passing on anecdotes as though they are truth when it creates a risk for others. So because you blocked your drain with your hand, you are comfortable saying there is "No risk"?

I've never gotten electrocuted by standing in shower with a hair dryer on. You're totally safe. Want me to recommend it for you to save time in the morning getting ready?

Risk my house? On what? That return pump that is sitting in a couple gallons of water that remains when it pulls air? And even worse case if somehow is started on fire it would burn the sump and water would pour over it.

And if your emergency overflow get clogged? Water over the edge spilling on electrical equipment? Sounds risker to me right there... You can risk your life on that, but I really don't like people passing off information like this when it could be a risk to others.

 

[PoePoeDilly]

I run kalk in my ATO. A Herbie with no open drain would be disastrous for my system. I'm, of course, set up to handle the volume exchange for either a return or siphon failure, but a gallon of saturated kalk would be bad news.

If one can completely eliminate certain risks in the planning stages without great expense, it makes no sense not to do, or even recommend so.

 

[TheEngineer]

And if your emergency overflow get clogged? Water over the edge spilling on electrical equipment? Sounds risker to me right there... You can risk your life on that, but I really don't like people passing off information like this when it could be a risk to others.

You're very right! Hence my argument for safely designing your system so water stays where it should be. That's why we now have the bean animal overflow. It has two emergency overflows. A backup for your backup. It is also why you should have all of your electrical outlets on a drip loop.

 

[TheEngineer]

I run kalk in my ATO. A Herbie with no open drain would be disastrous for my system. I'm, of course, set up to handle the volume exchange for either a return or siphon failure, but a gallon of saturated kalk would be bad news.

If one can completely eliminate certain risks in the planning stages without great expense, it makes no sense not to do, or even recommend so.

Welcome to R2R!

That's essentially my point in a nutshell. Thank you for saying it so clearly. If you can make something safer, why not do it?

 

[Brew12]

Guys, I think it is time to drop this thread. The OP can do a conventional Herbie overflow. He doesn't need to not run an emergency drain making all of these "what if" scenarios fairly irrelevant.

If @Lance needs more help or advice, that's great and he can ask. Otherwise, we don't need to use his thread to hash out disagreements that aren't pertinent to his situation.

 

[hart24601]

A bean animal does not have two emergency drains. From his site:

• Emergency Standpipe

• Full Siphon Standpipe

• Open Channel Standpipe

Yes there are many safety elements in tanks. I still have 3 holes on my drain, but as you said, if you can make something safer why not do it. I believe designing the system to not overflow in event of clogged drains is safer.

And FYI from SICCE - which is my return pumps:

Syncra Pro is a pump line of new generation, created to pair elevated performances with very quiet operation and high energy savings.
Thanks to innovative technology, these pumps can be used in a great number of different applications. Syncra Pro pumps are ideal for fresh water and saltwater aquariums, terrariums and turtle tanks, protein skimmers, water-cooling, indoor and outdoor fountains and for any other application that requires a high performance, extremely silent pump.

Thanks to a unique thermal protection that avoids overheating and allows them to run cooler, the Syncra Pro line can be used with wet and dry applications.

 

[Wavemode]

Thanks again to all you reefers who helped me with this. I actually like reading all of the things people have tried. The good the bad and the ugly! It's all good to me! I've gotten SOOO much harmful advice from YouTube I've learned to study everything that's put in front of me then make and informed decision based on the multitude of findings. I feel like some of you are protective of me in the way my big brother would be and it makes me feel honored to be part of this forum. SOOO glad I joined because you guys are priceless to me

 

[flyingfish]

So what did you decide to do? I viewed most of this thread. I am deciding today also. Do i go herbie or stay with durso? I want it quiet and safe. Sounds like I cannot have both?

 

[Wavemode]

I decided to change over to the Herbie system but in the process I was able to make my Durso almost silent. I bought a larger return pump in preparation for the new three quarter inch return. I installed it for testing on the old Durso system. I also had to use a ball valve to slow the new pump down. The other thing I did was add a union to my Durso drain so I could change my filter socks more easily. This step lengthened the drain line causing the end to be submerged in the sump. After some tweaking with the ball valve my tank went silent or very close to it anyway. For some reason the drain gets loud again once the filter sock needs to be changed but that is easily remedied. If I change the sock every 10 days or less my tank stays very quiet. I still want to go Herbie eventually but now it's not as high on my priority list. Hope this helps.

 

[cromag27 Verified Sponsor]

Can't go wrong with a Herbie. I've plumbed every type of drain system for clients and the Herbie is my favorite. but I would use 1" for the main drain and 1.5" for the emergency.

I decided to change over to the Herbie system but in the process I was able to make my Durso almost silent. I bought a larger return pump in preparation for the new three quarter inch return. I installed it for testing on the old Durso system. I also had to use a ball valve to slow the new pump down. The other thing I did was add a union to my Durso drain so I could change my filter socks more easily. This step lengthened the drain line causing the end to be submerged in the sump. After some tweaking with the ball valve my tank went silent or very close to it anyway. For some reason the drain gets loud again once the filter sock needs to be changed but that is easily remedied. If I change the sock every 10 days or less my tank stays very quiet. I still want to go Herbie eventually but now it's not as high on my priority list. Hope this helps.

 

[flyingfish]

Sorry if i am hijacking this thread..i am doing plumbing today. I have a 1" and a 1/2" to use as drain holes. I have a 1/2" planned for a return going up the back for my 1200GPH aqua mag pump. My tank is a 90 with a 30g.sump. Should i use the 1/2" for the main drain? Is 1/2" ok for the return? I have a ball valve to allow flow back to the sump off my return if i need it. Thanks! I may just stick with the durso as Lance did...if my setup gets too confusing.