Fuge to Carbon dosing transition?

StikHedRon · Mar 27, 2014

Well I am in the process of moving away from my fuge for nutrient export and transition into carbon dosing, mainly vinegar. I have a 125 gal water volume system for a little background info on that. I am using the graph on reefkeeping magazine as a baseline to go by. I skipped the first 3 days of 4ml for my water volume and went straight to 8ml per day for the first week. I will bump up to 12ml next week. At what point should I take my fuge offline and just rely on the vinegar to begin doing it's part?

ravi197699 · Mar 27, 2014

how is fuge working out for you ? or I should ask are you happy with parameters in your tank with fuge..

StikHedRon · Mar 27, 2014

Chaeto grows well and misc algae is contained in there. I'm just looking for more control over my nutrient export vs just letting macro do it's job and the uncertainity of if my tests are accurately producing correct results due to the algae consuming the nutrients. I'm running an SPS dominated tank and have read that fuges are not ideal for these types of tank due to trapping detritus and other bad stuff.

StikHedRon · Mar 27, 2014

There's gotta be some carbon dosers out there

Squishie89 · Mar 27, 2014

I finally took out the dying macro algae last night after carbon dosing for about 2 months now. Really up to you when you do it, the algae in the fuge will start dying pretty quickly (in my experience).

saltfishguy18 · Mar 27, 2014

Prior to me vodka dosing chaeto wasn't really thriving in my system and I had nitrates about about 20-30ppm. I got sick and tired of the chaeto slowly dying and went to vodka dosing 4 months into vodka dosing and not looking back. I took the rest of my dying chaeto out and gave to a friend before I started carbon dosing. Now my nitrates are 0 with my vodka dosing

Reefing Madness · Mar 27, 2014

Whats your Nitrates sitting at right now? That answer will tell me at what point you can remove your fuge. If you are at close to 0 now, then I'd say if your dosing 12mls already then your safe to remove it now. As your not going to go much higher for a daily maintenance dose for that tank.

StikHedRon · Mar 28, 2014

Reefing Madness said:
Whats your Nitrates sitting at right now? That answer will tell me at what point you can remove your fuge. If you are at close to 0 now, then I'd say if your dosing 12mls already then your safe to remove it now. As your not going to go much higher for a daily maintenance dose for that tank.

You are correct, my tests show that my Nitrates are about 0 or very close to it. But could my tests be showing a false negative due to the macro and algae consuming the trates? I will be moving to 12mls on Monday if my Nitrates are about 0 what am I looking for in the tank as an indicator I have reached my daily dosing limit?

Reefing Madness · Mar 28, 2014

Your not going to know your dosage until you take the fuge offline. Even then I believe you are at your daily dosage anyway, I would think it would be around 12-15ish. Anyway, your clrea to take it offline on Monday, your dosing enough that it will take up the slack. Continue with the 12mls for a 3-4 days, take a reading, see where your at then, if you still have no Nitrates stick with it for that week. Take another reading at the beginning of the next week, find out where your at there, If you have Nitrates then raise your doseage to 15mls. If you see that your Nitrates are at 0 and staying 0 you have found your daily doseage. Also, I'd split up the doseage also, split it in half between the AM and the PM roughly 12 hours apart.

StikHedRon · Mar 28, 2014

Thanks, I will do what your saying. I plan on getting a doser to simplify things so once I know this is the route I want to go and it provides the results I'm looking for, then I'll pull the trigger on the doser and set it up. Thanks for all your help.

ryecoon · Apr 1, 2014

Just following along. I have never had any issues at all running a fuge on my sps Dominant tank. 0 nitrates in almost a year and the chaeto in my DIY fuge is growing great i also recommend Mangroves. I think it all comes down to consistent water changes. Small amounts more frequently.

StikHedRon · Apr 1, 2014

ryecoon said:
Just following along. I have never had any issues at all running a fuge on my sps Dominant tank. 0 nitrates in almost a year and the chaeto in my DIY fuge is growing great i also recommend Mangroves. I think it all comes down to consistent water changes. Small amounts more frequently.

I do 10gal water changes weekly on my 125, I have very low Nitrates as well according to my test kits. But I have algae growth so I know for a fact I have nutrients. So I'm gonna try a more hands on approach so to say and see what happens.

FlightRisk · Apr 3, 2014

What are you phosphates at right now?

I started carbon dosing in November of last year and kept my DSB/refugium online. Before carbon dosing, my nitrates were always undetectable but my PO4 was on the high side of .08 to .13ppm (Hannah ULR). After about 2 months of carbon dosing I was getting the desired results of 0 NO3 and .03 to .06 PO4... then things got wonky.

To be fair I didn't get my water tested by a lab for heavy metals etc but I believe that my DSB was leaching PO4 back into the water (my sump is a modular from Aqueon... long story short: I'm thinking that some of the water was flowing THROUGH the bed and not just over it...) This was causing wide spread STN from the bases even though all other parameters were in check like ALK CA and Mag. The PO4 steadily climbed to a level of .1 even as I increased my vinegar dose to 34ml a day on my 100 gallon system.

Someone helped me here and on the other message board by pointing out the fact that PO4 will not be reduced if there is actually no nitrate available. I'm referring to the Redfield Ratio which very basically states that the balanced relationship between Nitrates and Phosphates would be 16:1. To try to combat this imbalance, I maintained my carbon dose, increased feeding slightly and started dosing Potassium Nitrate in the form of Spectracide Stump Remover(Lowes/Home Depot) I removed my DSB/fuge about 4 weeks ago and have been maintaining a level of .25 to 2.5 ppm of Nitrate.

The immediate response to adding nitrate was positive in that my LPS puffed up and looked more vibrant. The skimmer started collecting even more goo and the PO4 came back down. Now I feed like a madman and monitor the PO4 which has settled at .05-.08. Things looked ok in the tank but then I read a thread about dosing iron to help feed the bacteria... this is purely anecdotal but it seems to have had a hugely positive result(hard to say as this dosing has only occurred for the last 2 weeks). In the past I had subscribed to the idea of not dosing what you can't test for but after reading Randy's article on iron dosing and other reef forum posts, it seems apparent that it would be extremely difficult to overdose iron to a point of causing harm to my tank's inhabitants.

That's quite a bit of thread drift but I want to share my experience as fully as I can because overall, I do believe that carbon dosing has simplified my controllability of the tank's nutrient levels. As a quick side note, I worried that my nighttime PH would plummet after taking the refugium offline but it has actually improved as I now have my sump water free falling onto live rock which helps aerate even more than previously.

Hope this helps!

ryecoon · Apr 3, 2014

FlightRisk said:
What are you phosphates at right now?

I started carbon dosing in November of last year and kept my DSB/refugium online. Before carbon dosing, my nitrates were always undetectable but my PO4 was on the high side of .08 to .13ppm (Hannah ULR). After about 2 months of carbon dosing I was getting the desired results of 0 NO3 and .03 to .06 PO4... then things got wonky.

To be fair I didn't get my water tested by a lab for heavy metals etc but I believe that my DSB was leaching PO4 back into the water (my sump is a modular from Aqueon... long story short: I'm thinking that some of the water was flowing THROUGH the bed and not just over it...) This was causing wide spread STN from the bases even though all other parameters were in check like ALK CA and Mag. The PO4 steadily climbed to a level of .1 even as I increased my vinegar dose to 34ml a day on my 100 gallon system.

Someone helped me here and on the other message board by pointing out the fact that PO4 will not be reduced if there is actually no nitrate available. I'm referring to the Redfield Ratio which very basically states that the balanced relationship between Nitrates and Phosphates would be 16:1. To try to combat this imbalance, I maintained my carbon dose, increased feeding slightly and started dosing Potassium Nitrate in the form of Spectracide Stump Remover(Lowes/Home Depot) I removed my DSB/fuge about 4 weeks ago and have been maintaining a level of .25 to 2.5 ppm of Nitrate.

The immediate response to adding nitrate was positive in that my LPS puffed up and looked more vibrant. The skimmer started collecting even more goo and the PO4 came back down. Now I feed like a madman and monitor the PO4 which has settled at .05-.08. Things looked ok in the tank but then I read a thread about dosing iron to help feed the bacteria... this is purely anecdotal but it seems to have had a hugely positive result(hard to say as this dosing has only occurred for the last 2 weeks). In the past I had subscribed to the idea of not dosing what you can't test for but after reading Randy's article on iron dosing and other reef forum posts, it seems apparent that it would be extremely difficult to overdose iron to a point of causing harm to my tank's inhabitants.

That's quite a bit of thread drift but I want to share my experience as fully as I can because overall, I do believe that carbon dosing has simplified my controllability of the tank's nutrient levels. As a quick side note, I worried that my nighttime PH would plummet after taking the refugium offline but it has actually improved as I now have my sump water free falling onto live rock which helps aerate even more than previously.

Hope this helps!

Quick question. How long was your tank established before you took your fuge off line? Did you have SPS corals in your tank or strictly LPS? I didnt think STN would be caused by PO4 or by the DSB.

ryecoon · Apr 3, 2014

ronhaskovec said:
I do 10gal water changes weekly on my 125, I have very low Nitrates as well according to my test kits. But I have algae growth so I know for a fact I have nutrients. So I'm gonna try a more hands on approach so to say and see what happens.

is it the healthy Algae growth or the nuisance algae? Because a balance of nutrient in the water is ok. especially if nitrates are low. What lights do you use?

FlightRisk · Apr 3, 2014

ryecoon said:
Quick question. How long was your tank established before you took your fuge off line? Did you have SPS corals in your tank or strictly LPS? I didnt think STN would be caused by PO4 or by the DSB.

My DSB had been online for 3 years before I removed it in my 90 SPS dominated tank. I don't really know what caused the STN but one of my many theories is that it was the imbalance of NO3 to PO4 when referencing the Redfield ratio... If I knew what really caused STN I would be a very wealthy man :wink:

An example of what I mean when I think my NO3 and PO4 were imbalanced:

1ppm NO3 would be balanced by 0.06ppm PO4.

I was measuring things like 0 NO3 (I know, I know... I have a hobby grade test kit) and .1ppm of PO4 which is way out of whack. Lets assume that my "zero" measurement of NO3 is more along the lines of .01ppm NO3 and also assuming my ULR checker is have a good day with accurate readings... according to the Redfield ration, my N

ratio is like 1600 times out of whack. Again, assuming my NO3 was .01 my PO4 should be more along the lines of .0006 which would be undetectable...
Again, I know it's all hobby test kits and I there is a ton of error involved but I just wanted to share my theory...

We seek a balanced relationship with CA, ALK and Mag... why not NO3 and PO4?

As a disclaimer:

I am a hobbyist, not a chemist or biologist... Truth be told, I barely made it out of high school :neutral: Please take my evidence as what it is: anecdotal to my situation.

StikHedRon · Apr 3, 2014

ryecoon said:
is it the healthy Algae growth or the nuisance algae? Because a balance of nutrient in the water is ok. especially if nitrates are low. What lights do you use?

I am getting nuisance alage in my fuge and overflows. My tank is really clean.

StikHedRon · Apr 3, 2014

FlightRisk said:
My DSB had been online for 3 years before I removed it in my 90 SPS dominated tank. I don't really know what caused the STN but one of my many theories is that it was the imbalance of NO3 to PO4 when referencing the Redfield ratio... If I knew what really caused STN I would be a very wealthy man :wink:

An example of what I mean when I think my NO3 and PO4 were imbalanced:

1ppm NO3 would be balanced by 0.06ppm PO4.

I was measuring things like 0 NO3 (I know, I know... I have a hobby grade test kit) and .1ppm of PO4 which is way out of whack. Lets assume that my "zero" measurement of NO3 is more along the lines of .01ppm NO3 and also assuming my ULR checker is have a good day with accurate readings... according to the Redfield ration, my N ratio is like 1600 times out of whack. Again, assuming my NO3 was .01 my PO4 should be more along the lines of .0006 which would be undetectable...
Again, I know it's all hobby test kits and I there is a ton of error involved but I just wanted to share my theory...

We seek a balanced relationship with CA, ALK and Mag... why not NO3 and PO4?

As a disclaimer:

I am a hobbyist, not a chemist or biologist... Truth be told, I barely made it out of high school :neutral: Please take my evidence as what it is: anecdotal to my situation.

Your STN could of been caused by the removal of your sand bed and causing a nutrient spike. What process did you choose to remove the sand bed? Hopefully just a little bit at a time....

StikHedRon · Apr 3, 2014

Currently I have been using Brightwells Phosphat-e along with Seachems Phosguard to control phosphates and keep them at near undetecable levels on my Hanna HI736 phosphorus checker. Now with moving towards Vinegar I can have more control over the nitrate portion. I'm very excited about this transition and so far so good. I have been using the Phosphate-E since February and I honestly couldn't be happier with the results.