Fund for ich/velvet research

[Jmcg89]

So after doing all the research I can about ich and velvet and using a fishless qt for anything coming in it seems like we're still relying on older studies as a basis for our QT practices.

It seems like with all the money we spend that most people would say ok ill throw 20 to 100 bucks In the hat if we can find someone to do a thorough study on this.

Just seems like there would be a grad student or university that would say if you can raise this amount we can do the study.

Basically somthing that can test the effectiveness of different dips as well as the true time frame for survival of the incrusting stage as it seems that is the biggest area where we are lacking knowledge and going off of a better safe than sorry timeline.

Has anyone heard of anything like this being done or in the works?

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

So after doing all the research I can about ich and velvet and using a fishless qt for anything coming in it seems like we're still relying on older studies as a basis for our QT practices.

It seems like with all the money we spend that most people would say ok ill throw 20 to 100 bucks In the hat if we can find someone to do a thorough study on this.

Just seems like there would be a grad student or university that would say if you can raise this amount we can do the study.

Basically somthing that can test the effectiveness of different dips as well as the true time frame for survival of the incrusting stage as it seems that is the biggest area where we are lacking knowledge and going off of a better safe than sorry timeline.

Has anyone heard of anything like this being done or in the works?

I've heard Jay talk about the lack of finding being a major factor in the info gap.

I seem to remember him saying it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to do a study properly.

 

[Jmcg89]

I've heard Jay talk about the lack of finding being a major factor in the info gap.

I seem to remember him saying it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to do a study properly.

I believe that for sure but when you look at the number of people on here alone and say we'll start a go fund me page that number really isn't a massive obstacle I don't think.

 

[Jmcg89]

Half the members throw in 10 bucks a piece we got half a million lol as crazy as that sounds.

 

[Dom]

I believe that for sure but when you look at the number of people on here alone and say we'll start a go fund me page that number really isn't a massive obstacle I don't think.

It's a nice idea in theory. But without any accountability, I would be concerned about the funds being misused.

 

[Jmcg89]

It's a nice idea in theory. But without any accountability, I would be concerned about the funds being misused.

Correct we would definitely need someone in a position to do the study to say they agree to do it if the funds are raised and then have some accountability behind that, somehow.

 

[Dom]

Correct we would definitely need someone in a position to do the study to say they agree to do it if the funds are raised and then have some accountability behind that, somehow.

And I don't know that I would help to fund such a study. Frankly, it isn't that important to me.

 

[J1a]

Take a look at aquaculture researches. They have the money, and honest incentive to work on disease management.

For example, this:

Beta-glucan: an ideal immunostimulant in aquaculture (a review) - PubMed

The major hindrance in the development and sustainability of aquaculture industry is the occurrence of various diseases in the farming systems. Today, preventive and management measures are central concern to overcome such outbreak of diseases. Immunostimulants are considered as an effective...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Or, this:

In vitro treatments for the theront stage of the ciliate protozoan Cryptocaryon irritans - PubMed

The ciliate protozoan Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951, the 'marine white spot', causes one of the most important parasitic fish diseases, with extensive losses every year in mariculture and in the ornamental fish industry. In the present study, we explore the in vitro use of 8 different...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Arego]

Most research funding comes from corporations or grants if someone serious enough sees enough value to sell it's results.

 

[Chrisv.]

So after doing all the research I can about ich and velvet and using a fishless qt for anything coming in it seems like we're still relying on older studies as a basis for our QT practices.

It seems like with all the money we spend that most people would say ok ill throw 20 to 100 bucks In the hat if we can find someone to do a thorough study on this.

Just seems like there would be a grad student or university that would say if you can raise this amount we can do the study.

Basically somthing that can test the effectiveness of different dips as well as the true time frame for survival of the incrusting stage as it seems that is the biggest area where we are lacking knowledge and going off of a better safe than sorry timeline.

Has anyone heard of anything like this being done or in the works?

Scientist here. I think you WILDLY underestimate the cost of research. Start with the person who will do the research-- you proposed the cheapest category of labor, a grad student. That student will cost $28k/year, if they have finished their coursework. But wait, they need things like medical benefits and other administrative fees paid. Now we're at $50k. Not a single tank has been set up. Ok, now keep in mind that a person needs equipment. Some will be specific to the project, like tanks. Those costs won't be split with other projects. You need living animals to keep the ich alive, you need molecular biology reagents, you need various supplies, like tubes. You would be stunned to know how expensive lab plastics are. Let's just say you were SUPER FRUGAL and only spent $10k/yr. on expenses that were project specific and fractional expenses shared by other projects (e.g. the fraction of time that a microscope would be used for this project vs another project).

Now we're at $60k per year.

Should the scientists share their findings by publishing in a peer reviewed journal? Add $2k in journal fees. What about travel to conferences? Add $2k per conference you want them to attend. That's $200/night for four nights in a hotel, $750 for airplane tickets and a couple hundred dollars for conference registration fees. If we assume they get a student rate, it might still cost less than $2k.

Now we're at $64k per year. Grad school in biology takes 4-6 years, but let's pretend in this imaginary example that it only takes one year.

$64k...ok...but wait... there's more! These are what is referred to as "direct costs" there are still "indirect costs." Indirect costs are the costs that are incurred by the university to host a research lab. For example, the cost of the space allocated in a building, the cost of paying for the utilities, the cost of employees associated with running the university, like the janitor, or the person who does safety training for the students. Indirect costs are in most cases mandatory for any money that comes in to a university. At my research institute, indirects are 83%. YES. YOU READ THAT RIGHT. If the funder does not agree to pay the indirect costs too, we're literally required to turn the money away.

So now our $64k/yr is a little more than $117k per year. And that's PER YEAR.

 

[Jmcg89]

Scientist here. I think you WILDLY underestimate the cost of research. Start with the person who will do the research-- you proposed the cheapest category of labor, a grad student. That student will cost $28k/year, if they have finished their coursework. But wait, they need things like medical benefits and other administrative fees paid. Now we're at $50k. Not a single tank has been set up. Ok, now keep in mind that a person needs equipment. Some will be specific to the project, like tanks. Those costs won't be split with other projects. You need living animals to keep the ich alive, you need molecular biology reagents, you need various supplies, like tubes. You would be stunned to know how expensive lab plastics are. Let's just say you were SUPER FRUGAL and only spent $10k/yr. on expenses that were project specific and fractional expenses shared by other projects (e.g. the fraction of time that a microscope would be used for this project vs another project).

Now we're at $60k per year.

Should the scientists share their findings by publishing in a peer reviewed journal? Add $2k in journal fees. What about travel to conferences? Add $2k per conference you want them to attend. That's $200/night for four nights in a hotel, $750 for airplane tickets and a couple hundred dollars for conference registration fees. If we assume they get a student rate, it might still cost less than $2k.

Now we're at $64k per year. Grad school in biology takes 4-6 years, but let's pretend in this imaginary example that it only takes one year.

$64k...ok...but wait... there's more! These are what is referred to as "direct costs" there are still "indirect costs." Indirect costs are the costs that are incurred by the university to host a research lab. For example, the cost of the space allocated in a building, the cost of paying for the utilities, the cost of employees associated with running the university, like the janitor, or the person who does safety training for the students. Indirect costs are in most cases mandatory for any money that comes in to a university. At my research institute, indirects are 83%. YES. YOU READ THAT RIGHT. If the funder does not agree to pay the indirect costs too, we're literally required to turn the money away.

So now our $64k/yr is a little more than $117k per year. And that's PER YEAR.

I'm not sure I estimated the costs at all I just said half the members on here could donate 10 bucks and we would have half a million dollars, so based on your estimates I think I gave us a couple years.

 

[Chrisv.]

I'm not sure I estimated the costs at all I just said half the members on here could donate 10 bucks and we would have half a million dollars, so based on your estimates I think I gave us a couple years.

Sorry for unloading. This is just a really difficult issue in science across the board. One grad student won't solve this. Most of the time when a lab takes on a challenging question they have a whole team and they work together for many years. The basic unit of biomedical research funding in the US is the R01 grant from the NIH which is designed to fund a project for 5 years. The total funded budget (direct plus indirect) is typically $700k-$1m for a five year project.

 

[Jmcg89]

Sorry for unloading. This is just a really difficult issue in science across the board. One grad student won't solve this. Most of the time when a lab takes on a challenging question they have a whole team and they work together for many years. The basic unit of biomedical research funding in the US is the R01 grant from the NIH which is designed to fund a project for 5 years. The total funded budget (direct plus indirect) is typically $700k-$1m for a five year project.

I understand that and that makes sense but when you take it down to the real question think about what your asking I guess its just maybe I'm being naive to the time and logistics.
But really it's like ok we have 100 coral plugs here covered in encrusted ich let's dip 10 in 10 different solutions and see what percent of that encrusted ich survive in each solution.
I understand there's more to it than that but thats what I imagine the core of the experiments being things along those lines.
Is BRStv on here?? That's the guys for the job!

 

[Jmcg89]

Sorry for unloading. This is just a really difficult issue in science across the board. One grad student won't solve this. Most of the time when a lab takes on a challenging question they have a whole team and they work together for many years. The basic unit of biomedical research funding in the US is the R01 grant from the NIH which is designed to fund a project for 5 years. The total funded budget (direct plus indirect) is typically $700k-$1m for a five year project.

And youre not unloading I appreciate the feed back from someone in that field, I didn't intend to downplay the logistics of what it might take im generally curious about the idea as a whole.