Future of the hobby

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JulesH

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Hi

Happy New Year to all.

A question I have for you all, what with Fiji and now Indonesia stopping exporting their wildlife. Do you think that is the death knell for this hobby or am I being a tad pessimistic?

Julian
 
Top Shelf Aquatics
.... pessimistic. Hobby is already largely self sustaining where most corals are concerned. It’s nice to have wild sources; but no longer necessary. Fish are more of an issue.
 
There are still places that export...but look at the huge aqua culture industry.

Ora has almost 100 species it has as part of their captive bred program...
https://www.orafarm.com/products/fish/ plus some of the other folks that are having success with captive breeding.

The industry will absolutely move to almost exclusively aquaculture and captive bred animals for our tanks.
 
Deltec
IMO if Australia closes it's over at least as we know it today. However we are starting to see more corals from less traditional places like Tonga and softies from Vietnam. I am guessing but part of the reason we hadn't been seeing corals from these places as often as in the past is Indo stuff was cheaper and more colourful. We used to get a lot of clams from Vietnam for example. Even SPS from Solomon's Islands many years ago. Perhaps eventually other countries will pick up some of the slack even if the diversity will never be the same as Indo. I would guess part of the reason we are not seeing corals from other countries is no one wants to invest money in an operation when it could be randomly shut down at any time.

High end Acros and Zoas and Palys are easy to propagate, but a lot of common corals will disappear. Almost every type of LPS is a slow grower and some would take years to grow out. There would just be no return on investment for people to propagate them. Sure people like us wouldn't mind a brain coral growing out for years in our frag tanks but demand will far outweigh supply and it won't be profitable to run business selling these types of corals. Even a lot of common weed corals which can be grown out but are generally liked by beginner hobbyists may become harder to find since up until recently it was still more cost effective to import them then to grow them out.
 
Being from hawaii i have a optomistic opinion .The world of saltwater fish hobby has become priced to upper middle class.these same people can take dive trips or vacations.. where they want , they will go to see the fish in its environment. Weither its in maui or Tahiti. The local population and politicians can count on the tourist $ to keep comun in if status quo is maintained.

The dive spots and SUSTAINABLE trop spots may not be far away from each other as seen by Hawaii's MCLD`S CLOSED areas,special zones, and collecting places south of kona,where the weather is much rougher. So limited collecting of our spe ieces,close scientific scrutiny of the fishery.practised sustainably. The alaska comercial industry is a good example of sustainable fishing
Alaska made some bone moves in the past, but has its poop together now. All major fish areas
Now have ,Quotas for speciffic take, size,breed size, health of species are all indicators of sustained take over 10-20 ys.

The same is true of Hawaii,inodonesia,Philippines, south islands etc.They are slowly evolving totake better care of there reefs. We still see wide open dynamite
Fishing, for eating. Once the local people have learned to fish sustainably and not just for kaukau they will say ,wow if this fish is shipped live ,it will give me way more food in my families stomachs,than killing them to eat. The future is bright in these tumultuous time. ptl.


The love to see nature will be a driving force behind reef restoration and ocean recovery.

Theres milloins of us and only tens of thousands of politicians. We can help the ocean and still harvest from it. And teach the politicians about Sustainably .

The same way i harvest honey from my hive ,but leave plenty to keep the hive healthy,andthe queen happy and productive..

Good to keep the ladies happy eh!

Wahinie da best
Aloha

Me in suit 2017 saying hi to ladies,top bar hive. 40 inch 2 yr old queen, almost no honey prodution,
I give em all da honey, they work real hard to make babies and polinate all yummy flowers

Pair of reticulates kona
Cc ct

2017 bees 008.JPG


reticulatedbutterfly.jpg
 
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Fragging corals will not keep up with the demand in the hobby. The demand is much larger and many people want a variety of corals not just what can be grown easily or fraged. LPS corals are being priced out the average person’s price range already. An they where the beginner corals ones that newbies could have success with. Acro’s grow but the require exacting conditions that many hobbyist have problems obtaining. An at the prices that they demand newbies are not going to learn much as they will become disenchanted in the hobby fast as they lose corals to parameter swings.
Diving is nice but it doesn’t make up for living with corals in your living room. An many of the advancements in coral research was based on what hobbyist have learned they the years.

While we have come very far in fish breeding we are just starting in coral breeding in acro’s and no work is being done on LPS corals
 
Deltec
JulesH said:
Hi

Happy New Year to all.

A question I have for you all, what with Fiji and now Indonesia stopping exporting their wildlife. Do you think that is the death knell for this hobby or am I being a tad pessimistic?

Julian
Click to expand...
Indonesia and Jakarta resuming very soon
 
I don't think it's a death knell. However, I think prices for many things may go up, and it probably will be a disruption to the frankly dying "get a lot of wild stuff cheap" model.

With the (hypothetical) end of wild and maricultured coral collection from Fiji, Indonesia and the Philippines, supply and sourcing will be more dependent on a number of smaller pacific countries/territories. In some of the lower income countries, a stable large scale mariculture industry will eventually bring prices back down. (this happens in Palau, for instance). There are also a decent number of Australian mariculture business serving as I understand it mostly the domestic market; since that's domestically sustainable (I assume the Aussie corals available at Divers Den are maricultured), if worldwide prices go up (presumably fairly expensive) maricultured Australian corals will start to enter the international hobby in greater numbers.

In the worst scenario, I see the hobby in the US bifurcated: with the low end market basically served by whatever ORA, etc. can aqua/mariculture en masse, and more exotic stuff served by much more limited collection or specialized/expensive mariculture.
 
This is a self sustaining hobby - or maybe I should say is and can be more in time. There are captive bread fish and there is coral propagation. If you have a tank then you already know it needs trimming much like a garden. The beauty of this hobby is after you do your trimming you can look to your left, then look to your right, and there are plenty of us who would trade, beg, borrow, or buy said trimmings. That is self sustaining.

It does probably limit what we can keep but in the end is that a big deal? Probably not. There is a lot of doom and gloom in this hobby and rightly so because often overlooked is the coral or the fish when treated like a commodity rather than a pet. Pets - be it cat, dog, or bird for example have regular check ups. In the end there are politics and money involved and it starts to get crazy. At the end of the day there are other countries that don't really care about any of that because, well, when you are starving rules and regulations go out the door and I'm going to use the biggest net I can to catch as much food as I can to feed my family (figure of speach...).
 
Top Shelf Aquatics
reefwiser said:
Fragging corals will not keep up with the demand in the hobby. The demand is much larger and many people want a variety of corals not just what can be grown easily or fraged. LPS corals are being priced out the average person’s price range already. An they where the beginner corals ones that newbies could have success with. Acro’s grow but the require exacting conditions that many hobbyist have problems obtaining. An at the prices that they demand newbies are not going to learn much as they will become disenchanted in the hobby fast as they lose corals to parameter swings.
Diving is nice but it doesn’t make up for living with corals in your living room. An many of the advancements in coral research was based on what hobbyist have learned they the years.

While we have come very far in fish breeding we are just starting in coral breeding in acro’s and no work is being done on LPS corals
Click to expand...

Remove the fancy names off of corals and the prices will come down. I don't really care what people pay - it is their choice. But please tell me where I can find a Homewrecker coral so I can see it next time I go diving other than a magazine or paywall site on the internet. I agree some corals are going up and in some cases it makes some sense. However designer / boutique chop shops are ruining this hobby. Just my opinion.

Think of corals like a crop and it will be fine. I frag, you frag, we all frag - sharing is caring :) But all snarky comments aside (not directed to you by any means) I get what you are saying. It is an expensive hobby - more so when people don't treat the animal with the respect and care they deserve.
 
saf1 said:
But please tell me where I can find a Homewrecker coral so I can see it next time I go diving other than a magazine or paywall site on the internet.
Click to expand...

Did some googling. "Homewrecker coral" is just a color variant of Acropora tenuis. From what I've read plus my limited knowledge of acroporas, lighting and conditions have a heavy influence on Acropora coloration. MEANING THAT, it probably didn't look like this when collected in the wild and I kind of doubt it could get this way outside of artificial conditions. [I am open to be proven wrong]
 
reefwiser said:
Fragging corals will not keep up with the demand in the hobby. The demand is much larger and many people want a variety of corals not just what can be grown easily or fraged. LPS corals are being priced out the average person’s price range already. An they where the beginner corals ones that newbies could have success with. Acro’s grow but the require exacting conditions that many hobbyist have problems obtaining. An at the prices that they demand newbies are not going to learn much as they will become disenchanted in the hobby fast as they lose corals to parameter swings.
Diving is nice but it doesn’t make up for living with corals in your living room. An many of the advancements in coral research was based on what hobbyist have learned they the years.

While we have come very far in fish breeding we are just starting in coral breeding in acro’s and no work is being done on LPS corals
Click to expand...
I disagree completely...

Maybe in terms of MASSIVE sized colonies that we have seen in the past. LPS corals are fragged all the time. True starter corals are softies more so than LPS, and softies are easily fragged as well.

A quick search on LA, has tons of LPS for under $30, sure they are on the smaller side...but most hobbiests get in with sun 40 gallon tanks anyways. Furthermore, LA is usually at the higher price of corals...so finding them cheaper whether locally on the web is easily done. So saying LPS is already price out of new hobbyist, i dont think is true.
 
Top Shelf Aquatics
I think you're being a tad pessimistic. While I disagree with many of the folks here claiming that this is a self sustaining hobby (we still have issues with fish being caught in the wild en masse using cyanide, and at numbers that are not sustainable long term...come on), we are absolutely moving in this direction. I also believe Indonesia is opening back up soon to some extent, first off. Second, the hobby and suppliers in general have already been moving to aquaculture and large scale grow out operations. If other places do end up closing or severely restricting collection the hobby will likely change, but it's far from some sort of death sentence. And to be honest, you can make a very convincing argument that the current state of the hobby is largely unethical or at least incentivizes unethical collection practices, so we shouldn't be upset when a country closes down collection in order to preserve their ecosystems. That's far more important than our ethically dubious hobby.

If countries continue to restrict or ban collection I think you'll see some corals become rarer and more costly, however most either can be, or are already being grown out in captivity. You'll probably see some slower growing tough to frag LPS coral continue to rise in price, but again...if that means stopping harmful wild collection practices, it's hard to REALLY see this as a bad thing. There are a growing number of large scale aquaculture programs in place as well, so you're unlikely to simply see supply of most coral stop, though prices may go up until the industry shifts more fully to these sustainable practices.

As for fish, you may see some species disappear from the trade or become much rarer, but it's not like there will be no fish to purchase. Captive breeding has grown by leaps and bounds with companies like ORA finding success in breeding new species in captivity each year.

Overall, yes, wild collection is being discouraged, but not just by governments. Hobbyists are also becoming more ethically conscious and demanding livestock that was procured using sustainable methods. The industry as a whole has been responding to both these legal/government changes and hobbyist sentiment for at least a few years now and will continue to.

Personally my reaction to the idea that foreign governments are trying to restrict, reign in, or eliminate collection of wild livestock that threatens their reef ecosystems systems is not, "Oh no, how am I going to get my Aussie Orange Torches?!", it's more along the lines of, "About dang time!"

Let's all be honest with each other, the things that we (the industry as a whole) allow to happen to the livestock we desire though the supply chain is at times reprehensible. First, many fish are still caught using cyanide, which is not only terribly unethical and harms not just the fish being collected, but potentially the entire area of the ecosystem it's used on. Second, using cyanide increases mortality rates on the fish that do survive, even if they eventually make it to your tank. Third, these fish caught are shipped across the globe to distributors, with many dying on the way. Next they're shipped to your LFS, with again, numerous fish dying in shipment. Then they're sold to you. Maybe you buy local and the vast majority survive their trip home and make it to your tank and acclimate well, however some will still die. This number goes up if you buy from an online shop that doesn't drop ship from a distributor as the fish now have to take ANOTHER shipping journey and hope that they don't die from the stress or or being stuck in a bag with their own toxic waste. Go read the forums from online shops to get an idea of just how many don't make it to the purchaser's tank.

So ask yourself, how many Copperband Butterflies died just so I could get one to live all the way to my tank (just to likely die within 6 months anyway). How many melanarus wrasses bit the dust to get just one that could actually be sold at your LFS?

My LFS, a leader in the field with impeccible tanks and outstanding husbandry got a fish shipment in two weeks ago. Probably 10-15% of the fish didn't live past a day or two, with some arriving dead. I don't think this is an uncommon number. They got in 8 chromis. 3 lived. So if you bought one of those chromis, 2 more died to get you that one...just at this step of the distribution chain!

So no, I'm not upset, even as an avid hobbyist people are waking up and starting to actually pay attention to the ethics of collection and this hobby and are demanding better. We need to quit live collection as quickly as possible, and move to grow operations closer to home at best, foreign aquaculture at worst to not only reduce the harmful impact our hobby DOES have on the local environment where our livestock comes from, but also reduces livestock mortality in the distribution chain. If it takes government stopping collection altogether to get us to finally care...then so be it.
 
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Deltec
Deltec
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IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

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  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

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  • No.

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  • Other (please explain).

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