Genetically Engineer Tangs to be small?

[Reefering1]

Ehh I don’t plan on keeping anything bigger than a blue hippo tang. And don’t plan on stocking heavily.

Sure, but how many? You got 9 now, some are pretty big...

 

[Knucker]

Well after just witnessing a very tense thread about how many tangs can you keep in a reef tank or how big the tank has to be for tangs.

Let’s focus on the a hypothetical future sprinkled with some science fiction?

Perhaps maybe one day science be will able to genetically engineer tangs to be smaller and maybe more docile like a gobby. Maybe they can make a new dwarf blue tang or a yellow tang that only grows to a max size of 2-3 inches. Allowing people to keep them in smaller tanks like 30-50 gallons.

After all we managed to do it with “glofish” by splicing genes from a jellyfish and inserting them into a non fluorescent fish. Or making farmed salmon to grow faster.

Though that is probably way easier than trying to make a fish smaller. But let’s see what you guys think.

Not really sci-fi. We have been breeding plants and animals into casts for thousands of years. The most well known are Dogs. All dogs came from the same ancestor but we bred them for different reasons causing different breeds of dogs. Other examples are cows, chickens, pigs, grains, lettuce, carrots, and many many more.

 

[AetherealKnight]

Sure, but how many? You got 9 now, some are pretty big...

Uhh I.. don’t have 9 tangs? I think you’re mistaking me for another person.

 

[OrionN]

I disagree.

Selective breeding and genetic engineering are entirely different things.

Selective breeding simply involves organisms of the same species selected over and over for desirable traits. it really doesn't do anything that could not happen naturally.

Genetic engineering puts traits from different organisms, or entirely unnatural, synthetic traits devised in a lab into living organisms. Adding an unnatural trait into an animal for some reason or other, even if it might cause the animal constant pain or other discomfort is OK? Cows that produce milk containing vitamin C even if it makes their udders hurt all the time? Cats with green hair even if their skin is constantly itchy?

I don't see how one can suggest there should be no regulation of genetic engineering. I worked for a company (Genzyme) that strived for many, many years to successfully insert a single gene into humans. They were never successful at getting it to go where it needed to go. To suggest that genetic engineering is akin to selective breeding just misses the mark, IMO.

Genetic engineering and selective breeding are two entirely different thing that is for sure.
It is my opinion that genetic engineer for size, with otherwise everything else the same in impossible, at this time or for the foreseeable future, since size is control by a variety of factors, not one, or even a few genes.

I am talking about a lot of us thinking about regulate selective breeding, or even genetic engineering because the ethics of it. This is foolish and impossible. We already have difficulty to regulate genetic engineering for human as is. We can have all the regulation we want, some of the other countries could not care less about our (the US) ethics.

 

[Cali Reef Life]

Me? Indeed I do! And it’s going to be exciting.

I’m hoping to get a 180 gallon soon. Still comparing which brands though. I’m currently leaning toward Cade rn. Although Red Sea tanks are marginally cheaper but I’m still worried about their seams though.

I have had a red sea reefer 350 g1 3 years no issues. Anything above a 150 would make me want a eruo or rimmed tank. I didn't know i was nervous of seams until I saw post but if you sell the most even if 99% dont have issues still see the bad.

 

[areefer01]

it really doesn't do anything that could not happen naturally.

Time it takes?

 

[crazyfishmom]

The Ghenghis Khan thing is actually a myth. Having seen a recent sculpted recreation of a neanderthal man... as a particularly nervous female speciman I'd choose him as a mate over most male H. sapiens. His gentle face just made me feel safe. He wasn't ugly or anything either, he just looked like a dude you'd expect to find caringly tending some homestead in the woods, who would drop everything to help you if you needed his aid even if you were complete strangers.

BUT ON THE TANG THING:

No, heck no. Why? Because humans are dumb and largely breed/engineer things for vanity/convenience rather than sanity. It's because of humans that thousands of french bulldogs, english bulldogs and pugs are still being born every year despite scores of veterinarians pleading that these breeds should no longer be bred (or that they be bred healthier with proper faces,) because the breeding of these dogs is fully akin to torture as it condemns each and every puppy to terrible physical suffering.

Because people think that these poor things which need surgical reconstruction of their skulls in order to breathe properly and cannot reproduce without medical intervention are 'cute.' These puppers are also extremely prone to severe eye problems, skin infections, luxating patella, heatstroke... the list goes on. Without surgery these dogs spend their entire lives wheezing because their airways are so horrifically narrow. Quote my vet training: "It's like breathing through a straw - forever."

So-called teacup versions of dog breeds are riddled with many of these same issues.

So, a 'teacup' tang might not have such severe medical problems as a pug but forcing such extreme dwarfism on any animal is usually very bad for their health. Nope. Instead, let's just keep exploring the ocean - perhaps somewhere out there is a beautiful, as-yet unknown tiny tang species. Scientists are discovering new fish species every day so it certainly isn't impossible!

I really don't think laboratory genetic modification would work to create these tiny tangs - it would have to be done via captive breeding. Can it be done? Absolutely! I've no doubt! Should it be done? Absolutely not.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Sorry if it was a touch spicy! Thanks for the interesting question!

Well… many things are a myth but if you’ll notice I said that his Y chromosomal lineage is carried by 0.5% of men. That is not a myth. It’s a very different statement than what I think was interpreted which is the notion that he is the great great great grandfather however many greats of the human population.

 

[AetherealKnight]

I have had a red sea reefer 350 g1 3 years no issues. Anything above a 150 would make me want a eruo or rimmed tank. I didn't know i was nervous of seams until I saw post but if you sell the most even if 99% dont have issues still see the bad.

Hmm I tried playing around with glass cage aquarium cost calculator (a custom aquarium builder). But I couldn’t really get a price that was similar to Red Sea. It was slightly cheaper than Cade. I’ll have to keep looking around but I guess that’s the fun part about it, the planning and stuff

 

[JoJosReef]

People not in the business often have no idea how many and varied types of studies are needed to get a new drug approved. They look at nutraceuticals (herbs and such) at the drug store and assume drugs are similar.

The total cost to develop a new single new drug runs from hundreds of millions of dollars to several billion. Often the human trials involve thousands of patients. The costs are high to do the best effort to ensure safety and efficacy.

For comparison, the total cost of EVERY marine organism sold into the hobby worldwide in a year was estimated at $2.2 billion, which is less than the cost to develop some single drugs.

Marine Aquarium Trade worth $2.15bn, Study Shows | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

New research has generated the first global estimate of the number of fish and invertebrates within the Marine Aquarium Trade (MAT), as a way to incentivize industry sustainability and coral reef…

reefbuilders.com

That's just clinical development. Going backwards, if one considers all of the preclinical animal studies (non-human primates? $$$$), discovery phase and basic science, the cost becomes unquantifiable. Investigational new drugs don't come from nothing.

Edit: I suppose I've lost the point of this thread...

 

[Chrisv.]

Well after just witnessing a very tense thread about how many tangs can you keep in a reef tank or how big the tank has to be for tangs.

Let’s focus on the a hypothetical future sprinkled with some science fiction?

Perhaps maybe one day science be will able to genetically engineer tangs to be smaller and maybe more docile like a gobby. Maybe they can make a new dwarf blue tang or a yellow tang that only grows to a max size of 2-3 inches. Allowing people to keep them in smaller tanks like 30-50 gallons.

After all we managed to do it with “glofish” by splicing genes from a jellyfish and inserting them into a non fluorescent fish. Or making farmed salmon to grow faster.

Though that is probably way easier than trying to make a fish smaller. But let’s see what you guys think.

Adding one gene to a zebra danio is WAY different from engineering a smaller tang. Selective breeding perhaps.

 

[OrionN]

Adding one gene to a zebra danio is WAY different from engineering a smaller tang. Selective breeding perhaps.

Agree. There is no way to genetic engineer small tangs. Not possible.

 

[JoJosReef]

Well… many things are a myth but if you’ll notice I said that his Y chromosomal lineage is carried by 0.5% of men. That is not a myth. It’s a very different statement than what I think was interpreted which is the notion that he is the great great great grandfather however many greats of the human population.

Something new every day! Thanks!

 

[JoJosReef]

Agree. There is no way to genetic engineer small tangs. Not possible.

You probably would have said the same about glowing fish 30 years ago. It's just not likely right now. In recent years we've achieved computing power for predicting structures of unknown proteins at relatively high confidence and now they're advancing that technology to predicting interactions between unknown proteins. At some point, we will be able to predict entire pathways of protein interactions. Then the combinations that result in specific phenotypes (like small). Then you know which genes you have to modify to make a 3 inch tang that doesn't have the eyeballs of a 10 inch tang. Possible.. in the not too distant future.

 

[OrionN]

I would not have said that Glow-fish was impossible 50 years ago while I was in high school when I learned insert one gene from one species to another have been around in the bacterial for ever. That is one of the mechanism bacterial gain certain function like registrant to antibiotics
Insert one gene to a living human is the basis for gene therapy.
However, there isn’t one gene or even a group of genes that control size. There are genes that if disable will disrupt specific growth in certain way which result in deformities.
Perhaps one can block growth hormone or partially block but growth hormone control a lot more than size. It also only stimulate some growth but not uniform growth.

 

[Schulks]

Hey uhh.. Could someone explain how could we have Neanderthal DNA if none of their offspring were fertile? Wouldn't their have to be some fertile offspring for the DNA to remain in ours?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Im sure with enough time and funding it would be possible. Personally, I think there are enough people already questioning the ethics of various parts of the hobby as it is...I actually do feel that genetically modifying an organism to supply any hobby is a poor reason to do so. If someone wants to spend many years selectively breeding fish to be smaller, fine. Even if all the necessary time and money would make it a worthwhile endeavor, I'd still not support genetic modification of fish personally.

 

[Reefering1]

Hey uhh.. Could someone explain how could we have Neanderthal DNA if none of their offspring were fertile? Wouldn't their have to be some fertile offspring for the DNA to remain in ours?

Aliens bro, the missing link

 

[OrionN]

We don’t know if the progeny is infertile, mostly infertile or some infertile.
We cross species to bring characteristic to a population in animals all the time.
The red factors in Canary was the result of crossing Red Siskin to canary. Most of the progenies are infertile but a few of the males were fertile. These male were used to breed with more female canaries and eventually we have the red coloration imported to canary.
This is just one example of cross species DNA importation.

All really depends on how close the species are.

 

[Spare time]

Hey uhh.. Could someone explain how could we have Neanderthal DNA if none of their offspring were fertile? Wouldn't their have to be some fertile offspring for the DNA to remain in ours?

Who says none of their offspring were fertile?

 

[crazyfishmom]

Hey uhh.. Could someone explain how could we have Neanderthal DNA if none of their offspring were fertile? Wouldn't there have to be some fertile offspring for the DNA to remain in ours?

At least some of the offspring seem to have been fertile. Skeletal remains have been found showing features that appear to combine features of both modern humans and Neanderthals. DNA testing suggests hybridization between the two “species” did happen. Species is a blurry definition in this sense since at least some of the offspring were fertile. There are many instances of inter species breeding and generating offspring and if closely related enough leading to fertile offspring.