Getting Ready to start Nopox and need advice.

[glb]

Did you start with the full recommended dose? I was thinking of starting with half.

 

[lion king]

I had such a bad experience with biopellets I probably started at about 1/2 dose on the 1st tank. Then the 2nd and 3rd tank I just started at the recommended dose. Just test often at the beginning and also keep an eye on your phosphates. I got some cyano on one tank and found my nitrates had drop to 10 and phosphates climbed to about .16. I still use gfo to keep my phosphates in check, with my nitrates down at around 10, if phosphates reach .08 I get a touch of cyano along my sandbed behind a section of rocks. Overall it's easy to dial in.

 

[glb]

I had such a bad experience with biopellets I probably started at about 1/2 dose on the 1st tank. Then the 2nd and 3rd tank I just started at the recommended dose. Just test often at the beginning and also keep an eye on your phosphates. I got some cyano on one tank and found my nitrates had drop to 10 and phosphates climbed to about .16. I still use gfo to keep my phosphates in check, with my nitrates down at around 10, if phosphates reach .08 I get a touch of cyano along my sandbed behind a section of rocks. Overall it's easy to dial in.

With the gfo, Phosphates are at 0 on a Hanna Checker most of the time. When they get to 0.02 or 0.03, I usually change it out. Do I need some phosphate for the Nopox to work? Should I use less gfo?

 

[lion king]

Not sure if 0 phosphate is all that great. I don't concern myself until I get to .06. Which Hanna do you have, I use the ULR Phosphorous; Brs did a good comparison.

 

[mcarroll]

Can I pursuade you not to do that? That's semi-dangerous on a new tank and absolutely shouldn't be necessary – we have live rock to deal with nitrates.

If nitrates were falling – that's normal.

If nitrates stopped falling, that's a sign of a problem.

So far there's no sign that your system is missing carbon.

Can you post a full set of recent test results and we can look at why nitrates stopped falling?

With the gfo, Phosphates are at 0 on a Hanna Checker most of the time. When they get to 0.02 or 0.03, I usually change it out. Do I need some phosphate for the Nopox to work? Should I use less gfo?

I can pull the GFO. The Phosphates are 0.04ppm at present. Instead of changing the gfo I'll just take it out an use it on my other tank. I know Nopox takes out nitrates at a much higher ratio than phosphates. Since nitrates are more of the problem, this should work.

So, affirmative on phosphate limitation.

Zero or even near-zero phosphates should be avoided, especially on a new system that's still developing.

N+P are both required for almost all biological activity in the tank, so at this stage of development you want to assure availability not starve things out.

For those of you who are really against Nopox, can you give me more detail about why you don't like it?

High carbon environments skew microbial communities toward bacteria and harmful algae.
Moderate or low carbon environments favor phytoplankton and healthy algae.

Mature tanks seem less susceptible.

Forcing carbon high and N or P (or both) low seems to be a sure-fire way to get a dinoflagellate bloom or similar. Again, new tanks seem particularly susceptible.

Check out the Nutrients or Dinoflagellates sections on my blog for more related info.

A few links to start with are these goodies:

• Putting the N in dinoflagellates
• Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom

Remember
Algae blooms are not caused by dissolved nutrients.

Algae blooms are caused by nutrient disruptions....particularly nutrient spikes. Like when we drop a whole group of fish or corals into a brand new tank.

Trying to stop an algae bloom by removing dissolved nutrients is minimally effective because it's not hitting the source of the problem, which is instability of nutrient inputs. This article gives some more insight:

• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

In a nutshell, the article says nutrient levels aren't like gravity: What goes up, doesn't seem to come back down....not willingly, anyway.

Removing dissolved nutrients mostly hampers the critters you want to have around and promotes the ones that don't mind those low-nutrient conditions.

 

[glb]

So, affirmative on phosphate limitation.

Zero or even near-zero phosphates should be avoided, especially on a new system that's still developing.

N+P are both required for almost all biological activity in the tank, so at this stage of development you want to assure availability not starve things out.



High carbon environments skew microbial communities toward bacteria and harmful algae.
Moderate or low carbon environments favor phytoplankton and healthy algae.

Mature tanks seem less susceptible.

Forcing carbon high and N or P (or both) low seems to be a sure-fire way to get a dinoflagellate bloom or similar. Again, new tanks seem particularly susceptible.

Check out the Nutrients or Dinoflagellates sections on my blog for more related info.

A few links to start with are these goodies:

• Putting the N in dinoflagellates
• Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom

Remember
Algae blooms are not caused by dissolved nutrients.

Algae blooms are caused by nutrient disruptions....particularly nutrient spikes. Like when we drop a whole group of fish or corals into a brand new tank.

Trying to stop an algae bloom by removing dissolved nutrients is minimally effective because it's not hitting the source of the problem, which is instability of nutrient inputs. This article gives some more insight:

• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

In a nutshell, the article says nutrient levels aren't like gravity: What goes up, doesn't seem to come back down....not willingly, anyway.

Removing dissolved nutrients mostly hampers the critters you want to have around and promotes the ones that don't mind those low-nutrient conditions.

Thanks for the info! I don't have lights on the tank yet. Does that play into this in any way? I don't have any algae or diatoms as a result. I know that will change when I light the tank.

 

[glb]

Not sure if 0 phosphate is all that great. I don't concern myself until I get to .06. Which Hanna do you have, I use the ULR Phosphorous; Brs did a good comparison.

Mine never gets that high. I'll take the gfo offline.

 

[glb]

So, affirmative on phosphate limitation.

Zero or even near-zero phosphates should be avoided, especially on a new system that's still developing.

N+P are both required for almost all biological activity in the tank, so at this stage of development you want to assure availability not starve things out.



High carbon environments skew microbial communities toward bacteria and harmful algae.
Moderate or low carbon environments favor phytoplankton and healthy algae.

Mature tanks seem less susceptible.

Forcing carbon high and N or P (or both) low seems to be a sure-fire way to get a dinoflagellate bloom or similar. Again, new tanks seem particularly susceptible.

Check out the Nutrients or Dinoflagellates sections on my blog for more related info.

A few links to start with are these goodies:

• Putting the N in dinoflagellates
• Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom

Remember
Algae blooms are not caused by dissolved nutrients.

Algae blooms are caused by nutrient disruptions....particularly nutrient spikes. Like when we drop a whole group of fish or corals into a brand new tank.

Trying to stop an algae bloom by removing dissolved nutrients is minimally effective because it's not hitting the source of the problem, which is instability of nutrient inputs. This article gives some more insight:

• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

In a nutshell, the article says nutrient levels aren't like gravity: What goes up, doesn't seem to come back down....not willingly, anyway.

Removing dissolved nutrients mostly hampers the critters you want to have around and promotes the ones that don't mind those low-nutrient conditions.

I'm planning on running the tank at about 10ppm NO3 and now I see that some Phosphates isn't a problem. Since I'm not aiming for zero will that prevent the problems you discuss?

 

[glb]

Ok here's another question. I cycled with pure ammonia so the nitrates in the cycle didn't have organics. Does this change anything about the nitrates I have now?

 

[glb]

Ok I decided to start Nopox today. I dosed 3ml for the entire tank (47g total water volume). That's half the recommended dose. Raising the skimmer has produced better results. I'm going to do the half dose daily and see what happens. Since my goal isn't ultra low nitrates, we'll see if this works. I know I can cut back on dosing once it's at it's desired levels, but I'd rather do it nice and slow, like everything in this hobby.

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks for the info! I don't have lights on the tank yet. Does that play into this in any way?

Not really. With the lights out, and N and P demands should be lighter, but N and P will still need to be there.

 

[glb]

Not really. With the lights out, and N and P demands should be lighter, but N and P will still need to be there.

Thanks for all your help! I'll keep everyone posted!

 

[glb]

10ppm. Woohoo! 3 days at 3ml (for 47g) and two days at 4ml. There's some slime on the glass but it's minor. I'm going to back off the dose but don't want to cut it in half right away like the directions say. I'm thinking down to 3ml for a few days then maintain at 2ml. Does that sound like a plan?

 

[redfishbluefish]

Sounds like a great plan...but just keep measuring and adjust accordingly. I believe NOPOX states 1 ml per 25 gallons is "maintenance" levels, but every tank is different.


And FYI, that's the quickest drop in N's I've seen using carbon dosing. You must have some "Superwomen" bacteria in your tank.

 

[mcarroll]

And FYI, that's the quickest drop in N's I've seen using carbon dosing.

A little time with some available phosphate in the system to match all the availabel N is probably all it would have taken.

@glb I promise I won't make a dead horse out of this, but carbon dosing at this stage is really not a great idea – plenty of folks get a negative reaction under similar circumstances and the reasons why are even fairly well understood. Plus it really didn't seem to be called for, at least IMO. A problem was identified with the system (and fixed), but a lack of carbon wasn't it.

I would still cease carbon dosing and just give the system more time under good husbandry, where there are N and P nutrients are consistently available for the microbial life in the system to use and continue maturing. This is the best course in the long term – so take your time!

 

[glb]

Sounds like a great plan...but just keep measuring and adjust accordingly. I believe NOPOX states 1 ml per 25 gallons is "maintenance" levels, but every tank is different.


And FYI, that's the quickest drop in N's I've seen using carbon dosing. You must have some "Superwomen" bacteria in your tank.

Well there's always testing error.

 

[glb]

A little time with some available phosphate in the system to match all the availabel N is probably all it would have taken.

@glb I promise I won't make a dead horse out of this, but carbon dosing at this stage is really not a great idea – plenty of folks get a negative reaction under similar circumstances and the reasons why are even fairly well understood. Plus it really didn't seem to be called for, at least IMO. A problem was identified with the system (and fixed), but a lack of carbon wasn't it.

I would still cease carbon dosing and just give the system more time under good husbandry, where there are N and P nutrients are consistently available for the microbial life in the system to use and continue maturing. This is the best course in the long term – so take your time!

I appreciate your feedback I did take the gfo offline so there would be some Phosphates in the system. Nitrates have always been the bane of my existence. I know that I tend to overfeed. And the tank is now 6 mos old and has had two 50% water changes. I guess I just got tired. Lol.

 

[glb]

Sounds like a great plan...but just keep measuring and adjust accordingly. I believe NOPOX states 1 ml per 25 gallons is "maintenance" levels, but every tank is different.


And FYI, that's the quickest drop in N's I've seen using carbon dosing. You must have some "Superwomen" bacteria in your tank.

For a while I was testing with Salifert and API and getting about the same readings. So I started to use the API only to save the Salifert, which is much better at low readings. Last night I used the Salifert and got this reading. So it's possible the no3 was a little lower to start with. But I know it was measuring 25ppm on Salifert a month ago. Go figure.

 

[mcarroll]

Nitrates have always been the bane of my existence. I know that I tend to overfeed.

Try no to worry so much as things progress from here.....there's are lots of critters that will use up excess nutrients – including any corals – as long as you keep them balanced. Nutrients are the source of life, not the bane of existence!

Letting P run out will assure that N starts accumulating.
Letting N run out will assure that P starts accumulating.

In every case, the element that's accumulating is not actual the problem, but instead is just a symptom telling you "something is up". 2¢

 

[glb]

Try no to worry so much as things progress from here.....there's are lots of critters that will use up excess nutrients – including any corals – as long as you keep them balanced. Nutrients are the source of life, not the bane of existence!

Letting P run out will assure that N starts accumulating.
Letting N run out will assure that P starts accumulating.

In every case, the element that's accumulating is not actual the problem, but instead is just a symptom telling you "something is up". 2¢

What is the correct ratio for no3 to po4?