GHA and Cyano problems.

[kchristensen8064]

So I have a fairly new tank it's been running for almost a year now and I have definitely been through the different stages of the uglys. I am just getting past my battle with GHA and now I have a bad Cyano problem. Why when I finally start to win my battle with one, why do I start with another? I started with dry rock so I know that a lot of people have said that they get some extra phosphate leaking from their rock around the 1 year mark so I don't know if this may be part of the cause or not. I also haven't been able to keep chaeto alive for the life of me and in past tanks this has never been a problem so I'm stumped there as well. All fish, corals and Inverts look good. My parameters are:

Temp- 78.4
PH- 7.8
Ammonia- 0.0
Nitrite- 0.0
Nitrate- 0.0 undetectable...
Phosphate-.18
Salinity- 1.026
Alkalinity- 8.85
Calcium- 399

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[GoVols]

I'll take on "one" of the aspects, for the long haul.

When I've seen ;Wideyed my nitrates bottom out, then cyano seems to kick in, and carbon dosing makes it worse.



Hope other's respond, and good luck!!

 

[kchristensen8064]

I'll take on "one" of the aspects, for the long haul.

When I've seen ;Wideyed my nitrates bottom out, then cyano seems to kick in, and carbon dosing makes it worse.



Hope other's respond, and good luck!!

Okay, I do dose vodka... Should I try stopping that and see if it improves? I also forgot to mention that I run PhosBond in my reactor.

 

[NS Mike D]

Ok, stop carbon dosing , here is some important info courtesy of Randy Farley Holmes.

Cyano is ever present in the water column. No one knows for sure what causes it to precipitate and mat up but one common correlation is high NO3 and PO4.

That being said cyano can use other sources of N in the water that corals cannot, so it tends to show up when NO3 is low or absent and PO4 is available


Your NO3 is 0 and and phosphates are high 0.18 Not only is that a recipe for cyano, but that isn't a good ratio for corals ( and I suspect chaeto).

Check out the reef chemistry forum for ideas to get your NO3 up

fwiw, if you are running a skimmer and carbon dosing, the bacteria can take NO3 down much faster than PO4 causing cyano outbreaks which is why some folks need to run GFO when they initially start carbon dosing.


If you get your NO3 up, then your corals and cheato can use it along with PO4 and that should bring your PO4 down



PS there seems to be a correlation with ALK, NO3 and PO4, Low alk with low nutrients, High Alk with high nutrients. Look at suggested parameters from successful reefers and prven commercial folks like Red Sea or WWC and choose whether you want a ULN tank or a high nutrient tanks and target your parameters accordingly. 8,85 Alk is starting to drift away from ULN. I'm at 9 alk with 3 NO3 and 0.8 PO4

 

[kchristensen8064]

Ok, stop carbon dosing , here is some important info courtesy of Randy Farley Holmes.

Cyano is ever present in the water column. No one knows for sure what causes it to precipitate and mat up but one common correlation is high NO3 and PO4.

That being said cyano can use other sources of N in the water that corals cannot, so it tends to show up when NO3 is low or absent and PO4 is available


Your NO3 is 0 and and phosphates are high 0.18 Not only is that a recipe for cyano, but that isn't a good ratio for corals ( and I suspect chaeto).

Check out the reef chemistry forum for ideas to get your NO3 up

fwiw, if you are running a skimmer and carbon dosing, the bacteria can take NO3 down much faster than PO4 causing cyano outbreaks which is why some folks need to run GFO when they initially start carbon dosing.


If you get your NO3 up, then your corals and cheato can use it along with PO4 and that should bring your PO4 down



PS there seems to be a correlation with ALK, NO3 and PO4, Low alk with low nutrients, High Alk with high nutrients. Look at suggested parameters from successful reefers and prven commercial folks like Red Sea or WWC and choose whether you want a ULN tank or a high nutrient tanks and target your parameters accordingly. 8,85 Alk is starting to drift away from ULN. I'm at 9 alk with 3 NO3 and 0.8 PO4

Okay, I will stop carbon dosing, do I need to continue to run the reactor or should I shut that down for the time being as well? I've been working on the alk it has almost always hovered around 9.

 

[NS Mike D]

I wouldn't change up too much, general wisdom on a mixed tank, PO4 target should be 0.1 and for an ULN 0.025 And NO3 at 1.5-2 and 0.25 respectively using Red Seas targets.

I would keep running the reactor for now and keep an eye on PO4 as you raise NO3 in case it start getting close to zero

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Your dosing Vodka. #1 side effect is cyano.

Get your Po4 down if you want.

There’s no scientific data on nutrient ratios in a reef tank to avoid problems. It’s a myth.

Organic carbon dosing targets no3 first, Po4 second as that’s how the bacteria uptake two nutrients.

 

[kchristensen8064]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to stop dosing vodka, I'll keep the reactor running and monitor my parameters. I'm still learning how all of the nitrite, nitrate, phosphate stuff works and how best to control it, I have a general understanding but still have a lot to learn about adjusting levels to keep them where I want them.

 

[NS Mike D]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to stop dosing vodka, I'll keep the reactor running and monitor my parameters. I'm still learning how all of the nitrite, nitrate, phosphate stuff works and how best to control it, I have a general understanding but still have a lot to learn about adjusting levels to keep them where I want them.

fwiw, while low low low is the common wisdom, World Wide Corals NO3 is close to 20. hard to argue with their success. There was another thread this weekend where a LFS told a member that they only test for PO4 and ignore NO3. And for all that momentum chasing zero nutrients, check out the reef chemistry forum for all the folks that are now dosing all that stuff they took out.

I didn't see if you are running a skimmer. Some folks will put theirs on a timer to keep their nutrients from getting too low.

If you aren't running a skimmer, keep an eye on your coral. There is a camp that thinks that corals consume the bacteria that is created from dosing carbon. You may want to feed them something like reef roids other coral food if they start missing that bacteria.

 

[kchristensen8064]

fwiw, while low low low is the common wisdom, World Wide Corals NO3 is close to 20. hard to argue with their success. There was another thread this weekend where a LFS told a member that they only test for PO4 and ignore NO3. And for all that momentum chasing zero nutrients, check out the reef chemistry forum for all the folks that are now dosing all that stuff they took out.

I didn't see if you are running a skimmer. Some folks will put theirs on a timer to keep their nutrients from getting too low.

If you aren't running a skimmer, keep an eye on your coral. There is a camp that thinks that corals consume the bacteria that is created from dosing carbon. You may want to feed them something like reef roids other coral food if they start missing that bacteria.

I do run a skimmer. I run it pretty dry. And I run it 24/7. I feed benepets twice a week for the corals.

 

[NS Mike D]

I do run a skimmer. I run it pretty dry. And I run it 24/7. I feed benepets twice a week for the corals.

Good stuff. Let's see where your tank balances with stopping the vodka dosing. Once you're comfortable it's settled in, you can then decide if you need to up your nutrients by taking the skimmer off line part of the day.


hang in there with the cyano, It takes time to get under control. Just keep siphoning it out of your tank and be patient.

 

[kchristensen8064]

Good stuff. Let's see where your tank balances with stopping the vodka dosing. Once your are comfortable its settled in, you can they decide if you need to up your nutrients by taking the skimmer off line part of the day.


hang in there with the cyano, It takes time to get under control. Just keep siphoning it out of your tank and be patient.

Thanks for the help. I'll keep an eye on everything and hopefully get it all balanced back out.

 

[kchristensen8064]

Here's today's water test results:

Temperature - 78.3
PH - 8.4 (API)
Ammonia - 0 (API)
Nitrite - 0 (API)
Nitrate - 0-.5 (API)
Phosphate - 0.042 (Hanna)
Salinity - 1.026 (Refractometer)
Alkalinity - 10.584 (Hanna)
Calcium - 385 (Hanna)

Part of my issue with testing for nitrate is that I use API, every time I test it tests at zero. I follow the directions perfectly. I just think I need a better test kit for this one. All this being said I have noticed some improvement since taking the vodka dosing off line. There's still a lot of cyano but it appears to be thinning out.

 

[Subsea]

Your dosing Vodka. #1 side effect is cyano.

Get your Po4 down if you want.

There’s no scientific data on nutrient ratios in a reef tank to avoid problems. It’s a myth.

Organic carbon dosing targets no3 first, Po4 second as that’s how the bacteria uptake two nutrients.

I would like to address the “myth” of nutrient uptake by macro that you refer too. Photosynthesis is not limited by the most abundant nutrient, it is limited by the least abundant nutrient. When macro combines with N & P, generally it combines in the ratio of 30:1. That is not a myth. I have been growing macro commercially for 30 years. I have had laboratory dry analysis test run on Gracilaria Parvispora and several other fast growing macro that I sold for human consumption. It is not necessary to maintain 30:1 ratios in the water for macro to achieve that ratio.

@saltyfilmfolks
Where is the myth?

http://www.aquacultureranch.com/

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I would like to address the “myth” of nutrient uptake by macro that you refer too. Photosynthesis is not limited by the most abundant nutrient, it is limited by the least abundant nutrient. When macro combines with N & P, generally it combines in the ratio of 30:1. That is not a myth. I have been growing macro commercially for 30 years. I have had laboratory dry analysis test run on Gracilaria Parvispora and several other fast growing macro that I sold for human consumption. It is not necessary to maintain 30:1 ratios in the water for macro to achieve that ratio.

@saltyfilmfolks
Where is the myth?

http://www.aquacultureranch.com/

To be clear.

It’s that many have mis translated the uptake ratio into what they need to keep in thier tanks , NOT that it’s simply how the organism processes it(in those ratios)
In the tank you merely need to have both available but not in any particular ratio.

There are miles of debate on this , has been for years no matter how many times it’s been shot down.

 

[Subsea]

To be clear.

It’s that many have mis translated the uptake ratio into what they need to keep in thier tanks , NOT that it’s simply how the organism processes it(in those ratios)
In the tank you merely need to have both available but not in any particular ratio.

There are miles of debate on this , has been for years no matter how many times it’s been shot down.

I have a similar issue with zero nitrates & zero phosphates.

When I asked @Randy Holmes Farley about the uptake ratio of bacteria & coral, his comment was that he would expect the ratios to be similar. So, if algae, bacteria & coral all assimilate nitrogen & phosphorous in the 30:1 ratio, it is logical to target that ratio. Not absolutely necessary, but logical.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I have a similar issue with zero nitrates & zero phosphates.

When I asked @Randy Holmes Farley about the uptake ratio of bacteria & coral, his comment was that he would expect the ratios to be similar. So, if algae, bacteria & coral all assimilate nitrogen & phosphorous in the 30:1 ratio, it is logical to target that ratio. Not absolutely necessary, but logical.

Logical perhaps , but likely not practical and often not possible.
Test kits have a margin of error that makes it nearly impossible.
As soon as your biggest fish poops the Po4 goes up.
Youd have to test both in PPM.
A slightly larger pieces of frozen food the no3 goes up.

Once a week testing won’t show any of that as it’s a snap shot on that second , and is likely incorrect due to light error.

There is no proof or study that says it’s beneficial or detrimental.
So why do It ?

When I spoke to Randy on the subject he just reccomends that it’s available. And generally not in high numbers to avoid algae.

So after ten + years of hearing this with no expert to back it up , and having answered 100s of threads and posts explaining why it’s wrong may not something any new Aquarist need to do because it’s inpossibe (Esp in a new tank)
I call it a myth with basis in fact and highly reccomded it be forgotten again as a silly fad as it has for the last decade I’ve been doing it.

 

[Subsea]

@saltyfilmfolks
Nothing that you said tells me that the ratio of 30:1 is wrong. While not being absolutely necessary to have a 30:1 ratio, I am having difficulty understanding your objections:

“Not likely practical and often not possible”. Clarify why this is true. It makes little sense to me. Everything you said about dosing N & P applies to testing and dosing for alkalinity.

When I read lab test results that document the uptake ratio of seaweed is 30:1, it does not require an expert to deduce that those nutrients are desirable in that ratio. That is why I do it.

 

[kchristensen8064]

Ok so I haven't been dosing vodka for a couple weeks now. I picked up the Nyos nitrate test kit and both that one, and API clearly read 0. Phosphate was at .046 on Sunday. Still having Cyano issues. So do I need to start putting my skimmer on a timer to get nitrates to come up a little?

 

[brandon429]

The sand rinse thread is sixteen pages of tank fixes and cyano slaying. What are the chances we'd add your tank to page 17 and it wouldn't comply
We dose nothing. We take no param reading, never delay or wait to reclaim an investment. Ground can be taken by force

There's a two hour solution to fixing cyano, depending on your tanks size. if it's a huge tank then I guess dose on, rip cleaning is hard in large tanks