GHA- Is there anything else I can do???

[brandon429]

his usage is about 1.5 milliliters of peroxide 3% per ten gallons of tank water. normal dose is 1:10 but we've increased slowly/ he may be up to 2 mls per 10 Ill check when he gets back from work trip.

before attempting that though, your test rock needs to be ran at that level in another container at least a week to check details, we upscale when it works. The corals shown are tolerant, we would start at the 1:10 and work up.

The recycle risk comes from dislodging half-spent detritus from the sand area and up around rocks, yes agreed its a risk moving rocks around in a cloudy tank, I must recommend the deep clean/don't put sand back option since its causing such an access challenge today. I think we should do the hard big job and change the storage tendencies of the big tank in challenge. above he's going to fix his sand too when he gets time

 

[aqua_code]

I have the same problem....the only thing I can put my finger on is I have "old tank syndrome "

Meaning my LR is 12yrs old in the same tank and is prob saturated with NO3/PO4 over the years.

Only solution is to pull the LR and violently swoosh the LR in RODI to release the NO3/PO4

Can't you just run GFO until phosphates are pulled out of the rocks and the rest of the tank? eventually the system will be left with 0 phosphates if you continue to replace the GFO.

I've seen people who resell and buy live rock from wholesalers put it immediately in a tub with a skimmer and GFO reactor.

GHA can't grow without phosphates in my experience. Sometimes the phosphates are deep in the rocks and takes a few batches of GFO until they stop leaching.

 

[KJoFan]

his usage is about 1.5 milliliters of peroxide 3% per ten gallons of tank water. normal dose is 1:10 but we've increased slowly/ he may be up to 2 mls per 10 Ill check when he gets back from work trip.

before attempting that though, your test rock needs to be ran at that level in another container at least a week to check details, we upscale when it works. The corals shown are tolerant, we would start at the 1:10 and work up.

The recycle risk comes from dislodging half-spent detritus from the sand area and up around rocks, yes agreed its a risk moving rocks around in a cloudy tank, I must recommend the deep clean/don't put sand back option since its causing such an access challenge today. I think we should do the hard big job and change the storage tendencies of the big tank in challenge. above he's going to fix his sand too when he gets time

I was just curious on the peroxide dosage. No plans at this point to start it. I would gladly remove at least some of my sandbed permanently, but I need to keep some for all my sand dwelling wrasses.

 

[brandon429]

Wrasses require sand, sand naturally retains some waste, these guys found the balance wo having to rip clean

" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "

thanks again i know what type im getting next lol Im usually on RC and havent been around R2R much but i think im going to start looking around the site more:) Thats right before i forget to ask ive found the petco type of gardener on #bay (dont know if i can use the name on here yet?) anyone...

www.reef2reef.com

I like studying examples of all kinds of sandbed care

not articles, but examples. Work threads r gold for patterning and predicting outcomes in our tanks

In blusops thread, they manage any depth bed just fine, keeping inherent waste stores low.

That in addition to sand sifter gobies is good

 

[Rilo]

@Maya Ybry-Yagy I am pretty sure we have the exact same scenario going on. I have not tried all the solutions you have, but have read about them and suspect I'd get similar non-results like you. I posted in another GHA thread, which @brandon429 has responded to.

I guess my question in reading all this to @brandon429 would be, if we go through this hard work of manual removal/H2O2 use etc, is there an end to it? I'm pretty sure those of us with larger tanks (or even the smaller ones) don't fancy removing our rocks every few weeks to scrub them clean for eternity. Is a balance ever achieved? If rocks mature and start growing more coralline (mine grow zero coralline 18 months in) will the GHA eventually be eradicated or at least 99% so?

My other question would be, aren't we causing a mini cycle everytime we're pulling all or most of our rock to scrub it clean? That doesn't seem like the healthiest approach either.

I'm just seeking some clarification about the method and maybe it will help the OP as well.

I'd just like to say that my tank hasn't had a water change in months. It's essentially a fowlr (only two large softie colonies and a large favia colony). with a protein skimmer, an orbit marine LED, and a jebao pp8. It's been running for two years and the tank is almost spotless. If you weren't looking for gha you wouldn't know it's there. I haven't scrubbed the rocks ever but somehow it's flourishing. I can confidently say that constant scrubbing of the rockwork is not the end game to defeating gha. This is for my 40b.

 

[Magellan]

Oh man this thread is the stuff of nightmares! I don’t have a tank nearly as large as some of yours (28g) but I was recently able to beat GHA. I let it grow, untouched, for weeks. The stuff was at least an inch long and covered the back wall and was all over my centerpiece and rock work. Didn’t do a WC, just really let it suck all the nutrients out of my system. Then I changed my filters (new Phosguard, Purigen, and put in a bag of Matrix in addition to my MarinePure biomedia). Did a water change, manually removed a lot of the algae, did another water change. Increased the size of my CUC (more snails and hermits). It’s been about a month now and I’m wondering if my CUC will starve....the only unsightly thing left in the tank is fish poops on the sandbed where the flow doesn’t get to!

I am able to broadcast feed a small amount of reef roids every day to keep my Goni happy without growing GHA, it is happy days at my house!

 

[KJoFan]

I'd just like to say that my tank hasn't had a water change in months. It's essentially a fowlr (only two large softie colonies and a large favia colony). with a protein skimmer, an orbit marine LED, and a jebao pp8. It's been running for two years and the tank is almost spotless. If you weren't looking for gha you wouldn't know it's there. I haven't scrubbed the rocks ever but somehow it's flourishing. I can confidently say that constant scrubbing of the rockwork is not the end game to defeating gha. This is for my 40b.

And the end game then is what exactly?

 

[brandon429]

Scrub without peroxide = mow the lawn, leave roots, grows back every two weeks

Knife out algae first then peroxide on the clean spot, lawn is gone plus roots. That much difference on growback. The end game is manually clearing space so coralline and coral takeover vs the plant choking back corals since we're missing the matched grazers in each tank so far. Agreed the algae can be starved out, more than one way works. Our method is exclusively for the ready to be fixed yesterday type fed up. The after pics show a fast response.

 

[KJoFan]

Scrub without peroxide = mow the lawn, leave roots, grows back every two weeks

Knife out algae first then peroxide on the clean spot, lawn is gone plus roots. That much difference on growback. The end game is manually clearing space so coralline and coral takeover vs the plant choking back corals since we're missing the matched grazers in each tank so far. Agreed the algae can be starved out, more than one way works. Our method is exclusively for the ready to be fixed yesterday type fed up. The after pics show a fast response.

Is that what @Rilo was trying to say? Because their message was not clear at all to me.

 

[KJoFan]

Scrub without peroxide = mow the lawn, leave roots, grows back every two weeks

Knife out algae first then peroxide on the clean spot, lawn is gone plus roots. That much difference on growback. The end game is manually clearing space so coralline and coral takeover vs the plant choking back corals since we're missing the matched grazers in each tank so far. Agreed the algae can be starved out, more than one way works. Our method is exclusively for the ready to be fixed yesterday type fed up. The after pics show a fast response.

matched grazers? Elaborate?

 

[Rilo]

Is that what @Rilo was trying to say? Because their message was not clear at all to me.

The endgame is essentially a mature reef where the things you want to grow out populate the harmful things like gha, bryposis, etc. While also keeping your tank at optimal levels in the nutrients that the harmful things consume (Nitrate, phosphate, etc.) which can be counteracted by sumps, doing water change with water at a low tds level, having a good skimmer, etc.

 

[Sailfinguy21]

I have green hair algae all over.. rocks walls.. filters... i found turbo snails and astrea snails are the best.

Ceriths and stuff dont do anything.. and i have emerald crabs they dont do much either.

Turbos and astreas though will mow down an entire rock overnight.

I also habe 3 sea urchins.. a pincushion. A tuxedo and a long spine urchin.. they will clean a rock so well its white again lol.

I also have 4 tangs. And a foxface... if i dont feed them they go straight for the algae on the rocks

 

[brandon429]

There are studies done online where biologists box off a portion of any healthy reef with a wire grid box, blocking all grazers, check back in a couple days, and gha + plant associates have rooted into place even though that water is perfect and two days ago the spot had no algae

It means gha isn’t a sign of bad params in nearly all cases, it’s a sign of not having the right luck or planning for animals that do mowing for us. It wants to grow anywhere corals grow, so the way we use grazers in our work thread is typically opposite of how the masses use them, we only use grazers in the clean condition setting not the invaded one

We never put X into a gha tank and see if the match happens, that’s more hesitating

We always rip clean the sandbed, kill off algae on rocks and dislodge detritus from the pores during the process, earn a clean tank, then install grazer trials as growback managers when the system is fixed, not when it’s full of target. Those who are lucky or skilled at grazer use never have the gha issue or if they do it’s brief

 

[KJoFan]

The endgame is essentially a mature reef where the things you want to grow out populate the harmful things like gha, bryposis, etc. While also keeping your tank at optimal levels in the nutrients that the harmful things consume (Nitrate, phosphate, etc.) which can be counteracted by sumps, doing water change with water at a low tds level, having a good skimmer, etc.

I think the hardest part in all this, like the OP is that by most measures we'd have a mature reef already, or at least the beginning stages of maturity, if that's even a thing. 18-24 months in is usually considered sufficient. I would imagine both our issues are the leaching of phosphates from the rock, even if it can't be captured proven by testing due to the consumption of the GHA. I think we both have been keeping a balance as much as we can and practicing good husbandry, water changes, sufficient equipment etc etc.

I'm sure we're both anxious to get over this hump and on our way to more successful looking tanks. I appreciate the clarification.

 

[KJoFan]

There are studies done online where biologists box off a portion of any healthy reef with a wire grid box, blocking all grazers, check back in a couple days, and gha + plant associates have rooted into place even though that water is perfect and two days ago the spot had no algae

It means gha isn’t a sign of bad params in nearly all cases, it’s a sign of not having the right luck or planning for animals that do mowing for us. It wants to grow anywhere corals grow, so the way we use grazers in our work thread is typically opposite of how the masses use them, we only use grazers in the clean condition setting not the invaded one

We never put X into a gha tank and see if the match happens, that’s more hesitating

We always rip clean the sandbed, kill off algae on rocks and dislodge detritus from the pores during the process, earn a clean tank, then install grazer trials as growback managers when the system is fixed, not when it’s full of target. Those who are lucky or skilled at grazer use never have the gha issue or if they do it’s brief

Kind of like the foxface rabbitfish I added in hopes of it grazing on the GHA. I had one in the past that did a good job, this one..doesn't touch any kind of algae except whatever is on the clip that I add. I reallyneed to trap him and move him along, he's not doing me any good.

 

[Shluffer]

I plan to post a thread detailing what @brandon429 and I did. admittedly he provided remote advice, but I think he under credits how much value that advice helped. I wouldn't have had the resolve to see this through without it.

I plan to post a thread about this battle with more detail once I hit the 30 day mark, but I'll give a bit of background now (once I started typing, I typed more than planned).

Apologies in advance for the quirky nature of some of the delivery. I'm in consulting. Our speech patterns are basically the same as you get if you translate a kindergartners musings into buzzwords. And yes. I love bullets. As a side note, please put me out of my misery if the phrase "Bio Break" creeps in. Its pure evil. Almost as bad as a comb over. And yes, my marriage is stronger than this, but its more fun to say it isn't. Besides, we have a pact. Whoever leaves gets the kids. And the youngest is well, high maintenance when compared to my tank. And the oldest isn't far behind. But wow are they cute, and fun, and back on subject.

A disaster waiting to happen
My tank was the makings of a disaster. But first the tank:

• 213 gallons of system water (actual water volume, not tank size). DT is about 7 ft left to right, 24 inches front to back, and 30 inches top to bottom. I can't reach the sand without coming close to dipping my forehead in the water
• In wall build with fish room behind
• Reefbreeder lights, gyre pumps (poorly located at the start of this)
• Filter socks changed to infrequently, and removed by the time we started (I travel for work frequently)
• A wife who who has told me more than once that reefing is cheaper by heroin. I think she is loosing confidence in that being true. At least heroin has an end, not a good one, but an end

Prehistoric tank syndrome
This tank was set up about a year ago. All the rock and sand has a history. I moved houses about 2 years ago. Prior to my move I had a 4 ft 120 in my living room for over 10 years. I purchased my 7 ft tank, wrapped it in moving blankets, and it sat in my garage for YEARS. I just never had time to set it up. The called me at work one day. It seems she found us a house. Thing is, we weren't looking for one. Anyways, about 6 months later, we moved. As part of the move I set up a temporary tank, transferred the rock but no the sand, and set the tank up as FOWLR. I set up a second tank in the basement with lights rock and coral. Everything died. The fish when I was traveling. the light on the coral was either knocked in to the tank, or a magical troll passed through my basement and said "reefing is not for you" ....... I didn't have the heart to deal with it, so the rock sat in the water, no water movement, for 6 months. I pretty much saturated the rock with nitrate and P04. So old tank syndrome wouldn't be a good name for it. More like prehistoric tank syndrome.

Restarting a year ago
I set the tank up. Its built in, sits on structural lumber supported by brick pillars down to the foundation. BUT, Algae. The starting point Brandon posted was actually after a ton of work was done. I was cleaning the rock every other week with a toothbrush. About 80% regrowth in a week. The glass was no longer a viewing area. I couldn't clean it. Would spend an hour scrubbing and get nowhere. For level setting, that first pick is two weeks of growth after cleaning the entire tank with a toothbrush. And yes, I wouldn't believe it could get that bad that fast either. If the tank wasn't built into the house, I may have torn it down. But alas, a tank sized hole in my wall would not be compatible with a solid future for my marriage, especially in the context of the tank residing in a newly redone room (we gutted the room to the studs) and the significant additional budget allocation to overbuild support for a literal ton of water and rock. So .......

A better way
I then discovered Brandon's Hydrogen Peroxide thread. My first thought: I use it to clean scabs off my kids knees, how could this possibly be safe? I was ready to try anything. The alternative was to tear it down and start over, or give up on marital bliss and just tear it down. so why not? I pinged him, he responded, and we were off. Pulled three rocks, did the test, and got results. It wasn't an ideal case as we couldn't pull all 250 pounds of rock, remove (I think) 10 gallons volume (by displacement) of sand, and clean without a huge disruption to both my tank and life. I was planning on taking 3 days of work to give it a go, but we tried this first. the method was based on a theory, and some facts:

• most algae is imported. If you don't have spores you don't have spores you don't have algae. Its an invasive species
• Peroxide in high concentrations kills my algae quickly, and slowly in low concentrations (tested and proven)
• We can't pull everything from the tank in one shot. It would take days and would be potentially disruptive to the inhabitants
• We can clean the sand (and remove some) slowly over time without killing anything (theory, but bordering on fact)
• Nutrient overload through die off can be managed through aggressive cleaning of the sand, siphoning of the rocks. Massive water changes MAY not be necessary on a constant basis (80% water change is a full box of salt ......)
• Temporary addition of filter socks will catch floaters, but will need daily replacement daily

A plan is formed
So, we have an approach. As follows (mostly followed). This is where I will have to add detail later. I have some work due today, and I can only push procrastination so far. Note I haven't checked the numbers, so I may be a little off. Memory only goes so far

• Dose of Peroxide to be administered by dosing pump once daily
• Initial does set at 21 ml, equivalent to 1:10
• increase dosage after safety is confirmed to 25 ml, them 30, than 35 ...... until reach 42ml. 42 is roughly 2:10, and has the side benefit of being the meaning of the universe, life, and everything
• siphon rocks using a 5/8 id vinyl tube to pull detritus (yes I lost some snails). output placed in a filter sock to avoid having to replace water daily
• Siphon sand using said vinyl tube to pull up algae on the top of the sand (no intended sand removal, but I ended up pulling a bunch)
• Clean sand in place using a cheap petco siphon. Basically, push the siphon into the sand in one spot, and leave it their until it stops pulling junk out. than move it. output into a filter sock ABOVE the water line to avoid pushing gases into the water. I'm not sure I would do this on a smaller tank, but I have a bunch of volume. So far I have removed about 3 gallons displacement worth of sand
• After the peroxide weakens the algae on the glass, clean it
• Once I can see what I'm doing, remove rocks in sections, clean with a steel brush, and replace. note I ended up re-aquascaping as part of this to a more open design allowing more access
• As growback occurs, pull the offending rocks, reprimand the algae in a clear LOUD voice, clean with a steel brush, spray with peroxide, reintroduce. Note this has to be done at least 4 hours (i try for 8) from when the doser hits

the above is great for cleaning it, but how do we keep it clean? well we are starting to work on that now. The plan in place:

• Move rocks for better access
• add more coral (I know, its a good excuse) to suck up nutrients
• add more tangs (I'm partial to tangs) to give me an excuse to buy tangs. uh, I mean to eat some of the growth
• Two par38 lamps in a chamber in the sump in an effort to redirect algae growth to a preferred area. Populate the chamber with hermit crabs because, well, I don't want them in my DT and I have them. So banished to the sump they are
• refresh my clean up crew with some new snails
• Spot clean rocks as regrowth occurs (I'm not 100% clean YET)

The results
I can see fish in my tank. Really, even just that is an improvement. Brandon posted pictures, at some point I plan to post daily pictures from the first 3 week and weekly pictures for the next 5. I have them. Just giving it a bit more time ..... Bottom line is that my tank has gone from, awful, to not bad. We are getting to good. People used to walk into my living room and conversation would go:
Guest: Why are you cultivating algae in your lining room?
me: its an aquarium.
Guest: than why don't you have fish?
Me: I have fish.
Guest: how do you know? you can't see them?
Me: I need a drink

Now people just remark positively. With some more coral and tangs, that too will improve.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I too could use some advice for hair algae. At the beginning of July, I completely broke down my tank rinsed and scrubbed the rocks, and completely replaced the sand bed. I spent 2 hours rinsing the new sand and I can now pick up handfuls and drop it with zero clouding. The hair algae on the rocks has persisted. My phosphates are reading 0.07 using the hanna checker and nitrates are 2-5 with the sailfert test. Should I try lowering phosphates using phosphate rx or something to stop the hair algae? or should I try something else?

 

[Shluffer]

Check out the peroxide thread

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

Check out the peroxide thread

Is there one particular one? do you happen to have the link? and is peroxide safe for fish and inverts. I don't hate hair algae enough to risk my fish.

 

[brandon429]

hey lets work it live here, post pics!
B