Going back to t5...
- Thread starter Acro
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As someone whos still relatively new to the reef keeping hobby, and who's only ever used LEDs lol, its difficult for me to have an opinion on what looks best, works best, etc. In all my browsing of lighting related threads, the one thing Ive noticed is the major difference in opinion on photoperiod with t5 vs LED. Correct me if Im wrong, but what Ive noticed is the majority of t5 users agree the lights should be run at full intensity for 8-10 hours. LED users tend to advocate a much shorter photoperiod at full intensity, usually somewhere in the range of 2-4 hours.
Now, assume youve got a t5 fixture and a LED fixture on two identical tanks, side by side. Each fixture is 150w, 16000k at full power, and achieve similar PAR numbers. The t5 runs for 9 hours at full intensity and the colors and growth are great as expected. The LED only runs for 3 hours at full intensity and the colors are good and theres some noticeable growth, but not on the same scale as the t5 lit tank. Again, assuming we have identical tanks through and through, why is the LED fixture being run so differently? Would it not make sense to run the LED at the same, or as close to the same, photoperiod as the t5?
This is all hypothetical, as I have not tested it nor seen anyone do such a comparison, but to me it makes sense. Maybe all of us LED homers have gotten too caught up in nailing that perfect sunrise/peak/sunset photoperiod that we've overlooked something so seemingly simple... food for thought, not trying to hijack, just bored at work and got to thinking lol
As a matter of fact, give me a week or so to adjust the photoperiod on my 160w Razor to mimic that of a t5 fixture and Ill start keeping track of color and growth!
Now, assume youve got a t5 fixture and a LED fixture on two identical tanks, side by side. Each fixture is 150w, 16000k at full power, and achieve similar PAR numbers. The t5 runs for 9 hours at full intensity and the colors and growth are great as expected. The LED only runs for 3 hours at full intensity and the colors are good and theres some noticeable growth, but not on the same scale as the t5 lit tank. Again, assuming we have identical tanks through and through, why is the LED fixture being run so differently? Would it not make sense to run the LED at the same, or as close to the same, photoperiod as the t5?
This is all hypothetical, as I have not tested it nor seen anyone do such a comparison, but to me it makes sense. Maybe all of us LED homers have gotten too caught up in nailing that perfect sunrise/peak/sunset photoperiod that we've overlooked something so seemingly simple... food for thought, not trying to hijack, just bored at work and got to thinking lol
As a matter of fact, give me a week or so to adjust the photoperiod on my 160w Razor to mimic that of a t5 fixture and Ill start keeping track of color and growth!
-Logzor
2500 Club Member
If that question has to be asked then it is the lights in my opinions. Take a look in the lighting sections of all of these forums and you see a ton of people for years asking about bulb combos and such. Now give those same people an LED fixture, which you can customize bulbs, intensity, etc and you have a disaster on your hands.
Such is the fate of humanity...
There could be something to that. I am in love with my t5 and can't really fathom why someone would spend 10x the money for a light they can only run at 50% intensity.
-Logzor
2500 Club Member
Yeah I think part of the issue with LEDs is the intense beam of light - it just zaps most corals. If the LEDs were aimed up into a reflector then back down I think people would have more success with them. This would also help with spectrum color blending. Yes this would waste a lot of light but you cant run these things at full intensity anyways.
I run an AI Sol Blue on my frag tank and just can get the results I want out of it. Love my T5's on my display. I think I might swap out the LEDs for MH since I've never tried that type of lighting.
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I think the reason you can only run at 50% has to do with coverage and spectrum. You have to use many different diodes to try and have enough spectral diversity to really keep the corals. They don't have a very wide coverage either, so you have to bunch them up. Where as mh and florescent have full spectrum bulbs.
Think of it like this.... Put 60 t5 bulbs over your 75g.... What do you think would happen?
Chris L
Active Member
If that question has to be asked then it is the lights in my opinions. Take a look in the lighting sections of all of these forums and you see a ton of people for years asking about bulb combos and such. Now give those same people an LED fixture, which you can customize bulbs, intensity, etc and you have a disaster on your hands.
I agree. I think that a lot of the LEDS are so customizable that a lot of people (myself included) like to adjust colors and what not causing instability. T5/Metal halide are basically turn on turn off (although some T5 fixtures are dimmable). Obviously there are a lot of people that have used T5, MH, Leds, with great success and others that just can't get it right.
Gwitness
Well-Known Member
I have a mixed reef now with 3 Radion gen 2s on it....I have been debating on getting rid of them so to go with something else, but my last experience is only with vho lights!! Should I go with t5 and led combo Or metal halides??
TJ's Reef
Valuable Member
Without getting into a lonnnnnng and heated debate on LED's -vs- MH/T5's again let me just state a few facts and not my opinions about lighting in general.
Photons are photons or light radiation is all the same no matter the source. Coral and plants do not know or care about this source. By the nature of incandescent and fluorescent lamp makeup they are naturally more broad spectrum than LED emitters. MH and T5 light output greatly degrades and color shifts quite quickly where LED's do not for a very long time. LED's are extremely accurate in a narrow spectrum of light giving the ability to choose very specific colors or blends of light. LED's are much more efficient in both power consumption and lifespan. The European Union and most Manufacturing Countries Word-wide are already phasing out production of incandescent lamps of all types. Most all full/broad spectrum LED fixtures made today are more than equal to MH and/or T5's in growing Coral and Plants if adjusted correctly (<--- Fact / Opinion --->) All the information is easily accessible over the internet including R2R site. So the fact is, that it is 'User' not 'Light' error LED fixture 'Not working' scenarios.
My opinion: Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as am I and if..... you personally do not like the look of LED lighting or the LED fixture itself, I like MH or T5 better because it is easier plug & play technology etc..... I can buy this and totally respect your statement as such. BUT, for those that say anything along the lines that they DO NOT WORK, DO NOT GROW CORAL, MAKE COLORS WORSE, TAKE AWAY POLYP EXTENSION etc... I call BULL !!! These are poorly stated opinions and hold no water fact/science wise and I will always step in and say so. We all need to be honest with ourselves and on what we post on these forums so interested parties/people get the facts and opinions as such.
Cheers, Todd
Photons are photons or light radiation is all the same no matter the source. Coral and plants do not know or care about this source. By the nature of incandescent and fluorescent lamp makeup they are naturally more broad spectrum than LED emitters. MH and T5 light output greatly degrades and color shifts quite quickly where LED's do not for a very long time. LED's are extremely accurate in a narrow spectrum of light giving the ability to choose very specific colors or blends of light. LED's are much more efficient in both power consumption and lifespan. The European Union and most Manufacturing Countries Word-wide are already phasing out production of incandescent lamps of all types. Most all full/broad spectrum LED fixtures made today are more than equal to MH and/or T5's in growing Coral and Plants if adjusted correctly (<--- Fact / Opinion --->) All the information is easily accessible over the internet including R2R site. So the fact is, that it is 'User' not 'Light' error LED fixture 'Not working' scenarios.
My opinion: Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as am I and if..... you personally do not like the look of LED lighting or the LED fixture itself, I like MH or T5 better because it is easier plug & play technology etc..... I can buy this and totally respect your statement as such. BUT, for those that say anything along the lines that they DO NOT WORK, DO NOT GROW CORAL, MAKE COLORS WORSE, TAKE AWAY POLYP EXTENSION etc... I call BULL !!! These are poorly stated opinions and hold no water fact/science wise and I will always step in and say so. We all need to be honest with ourselves and on what we post on these forums so interested parties/people get the facts and opinions as such.
Cheers, Todd
TJ's Reef
Valuable Member
Let me address a couple more issue of LED's, or the primary reason we need only to run most fixtures at 45-55%. Because of the narrow spectrum emitted there needs to be more of them to create a usable blend. And because we do not have the reflector technology well developed for them (with the exception of Kessil) there needs to be many more spread out for coverage.
PAR/PUR, LED's being so narrow focused these numbers are always at least a bit skewed being that there is normally not much of any 'garbage light' meaning that PAR meters measure all light spectrum between a certain range and not all this light is what we or our Coral/Plants want/need. You can get huge PAR numbers under just Blue and Red emitters that are not ideal and you get higher than actual PUR numbers in PAR readings with all incandescent and fluorescent lamps since all have varying degrees of this 'garbage light' included in their output.
Cheers, Todd
PAR/PUR, LED's being so narrow focused these numbers are always at least a bit skewed being that there is normally not much of any 'garbage light' meaning that PAR meters measure all light spectrum between a certain range and not all this light is what we or our Coral/Plants want/need. You can get huge PAR numbers under just Blue and Red emitters that are not ideal and you get higher than actual PUR numbers in PAR readings with all incandescent and fluorescent lamps since all have varying degrees of this 'garbage light' included in their output.
Cheers, Todd
Jonreefer
Valuable Member
I have gone back and forth on this current tank I have. I ran 2 different LED fixtures at first. one didnt adjust to a blue enough spectrum for me. I bought a different light and it hit the right color I like. during that time I had it the corals had nice color and cant judge on much growth didnt keep it long enough to see any. but I did see them color up better under them. I then switched to the current T5 fixture I am running now with 3blue+ and a coral+ bulbs. it looks great everything is growing and color is great. Just kinda miss the extra pop LED ads and was looking to add strip of LED but then i bought a Radion Gen2 yesterday from BRS cause of the price drop. So I am excited to see what it can do now I have a controllable fixture with each ch not just 2 ch that are manually dimmable. So far I have had success with both LED and T5 i just keep jumping around
jservedio
Active Member
Agree on every single point. If you can spend thousands of dollars on an LED array why can you not get a PAR meter to correctly dial in your lights (or just borrow one for free - every reef club seems to have one)? If you want a plug-n-play system just put the Radion in natural mode and don't change a **** thing or stick with your T5 or MH. If you are going to adjust colors and are not a complete lighting expert, you need a PAR meter to get the correct levels. If you go from a T5 system putting out 300 PAR at a certain point for 8 hours a day then put an LED array putting out 200 PAR in that spot and only run it for 6 hours your colors are going to fade and growth will slow. Unless you know exactly how much light your corals are getting and for how long, they will never look right if you are messing around with a system you don't understand.
I have seen so many tanks that look incredible running Radions (and every other LED under the sun) and my tank is doing great under a Radion Pro. If you like the blanket effect you get from T5s, simply throw some wide angle lenses on your LEDs. If you have DIY, you can get pretty wide angles and if you have a Radion you can have 120 degrees.
Another thing I notice is people switching lighting systems and throwing them over their tank for 3 or 4 months and getting frustrated when their color fades without spending the time to properly adjust them and forgetting how long it took them to get their corals to color up with their previous setup. Corals, especially acros, take a while to adjust to new lighting and they need time to do so. Switching lighting is never instant gratification - just like everything else in this hobby.
TJ's Reef
Valuable Member
Absolutely and one of my reasons for not being a fan of them. They are indeed quality lighting and very similar in output and coverage to many MH setups though. My personal DIY array is fully spread out over my entire tanks footprint and has all the benefits of both T5/VHO coverage and the best of what a new Phoenix 14K lamp in overall spectrum without heat or degradation of spectrum. On a 60g 24" cube you could easily get full coverage in most any light blend you want with many of the LED fixtures out there like Reef Radiance DM-155e or one of many re-labeled Evergrow fixtures that allow custom layout. And of course with DIY, almost an unlimited amount of options.
Cheers, Todd
incomparable with regards to physical light coverage, sure...doesnt mean the Radion lit tank cant/wont be equally "attractive" or "successful" as the t5 lit tank IMO
I do completely agree with Todd.
I do hope that in 6 months or so I can come back with visual, factual evidence that my LED/t5 photoperiod hypothesis has some validity to it so I can start another flame war on lighting preferences muahaha :laser:
:wink:
-Logzor
2500 Club Member
No one is saying LEDs can't, they're saying LEDs didn't work out well for them. People are stating that their own personal experience with LEDs has resulted in poor growth, color, etc, and you're calling that a poorly formed opinion?
Personally I think your opinion is poorly formed and somewhat off-topic, no offence.
I think your point was that the issue is two fold, user error, and differences in spectrum. I agree that LEDs have a huge learning curve, one that I haven't figured out in the 3 years running my AI Sol Blue. Why bother? The other issue is spectrum, some fixtures a huge variety of LEDs with different spectra while other run only blue and white, so a lot of people might not be having success due to the lack of certain spectra in their fixtures! Furthermore, I don't care if a photon is a photon is a photon, if you're shooting photons out of a LED with a razor then spectrum it's a lot different than shooting them out of an evenly dispersed fluorescent tube with a broad spectrum. The differences in the way these two applications impact coral is huge.
No doubt there are some successful SPS tank running LEDs out there but it's a lot harder to get there than it is with MH or T5. Normal sane people are figuring out it's not worth it trying to force LEDs to be successful. I think over time this issue will slowly be resolved as user experience increases and the spectrum / intensity combo is nailed down.
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True
Not true corals and plants care but chlorophyll does not.
If it were true all corals would grow at the same depth.
Same as plants why some can grow in the shade and other dont.
Corals have adapted to different spectrum of light, intensities and UV. They can collect more light or shade themselves with pigments and proteins.. You change that and they change. You take away UV and eventually those colorful pigments that were used as sunblock disappear. Its one reason corals morph..
The only thing that cares about par or pur is chlorophyll ... But there is allot more to the color of corals than chlorophyl. or par or pur but that seems to be be all we focus on and that is where the problem is.. Most quality fixtures either halide, t-5 or leds produce enough par.
The biggest problem with leds is people like the pop (fluorescence) and they run too much blue. Most Sps come from shallow water and are affected by larger amounts of UV and much broader spectrum of light.. Blue is mainly for deeper water corals. What happens to sps when there is too much blue is they sometimes brown out or loose those colorful Pigments..
Some of those pigments are sunscreens or even used to block certain wave lengths they dont like, you remove them they loose those pigments,
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OP
OP
Acro
Well-Known Member
I hope none of these posts are towards me?! Lol
I'm not saying LEDS don't work, I think I said? I'm just saying I'm not able to dial them in even with my par meter.
I simply just want to enjoy my reef, without the headache of constantly aggravating things because of changes
I'm not saying LEDS don't work, I think I said? I'm just saying I'm not able to dial them in even with my par meter.
I simply just want to enjoy my reef, without the headache of constantly aggravating things because of changes
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TJ's Reef
Valuable Member
Logzor, my point exactly was that if its stated as an opinion "that LED's did not work for me as I had them setup" is fine not that "LED's did not work" I'll go back to one of my old analogies in MH use "I threw up a MH on my tank because everyone, I mean everyone said that this is what I needed and all my corals CROAKED!" what was not mentioned is that it was a 28 Bio-Cube and it was an overpowered 400w 10K lamp 8" above the water line. Over the top analogy, maybe but not that far off really as to what many many Reefers have done with LED fixtures in this hobby. Common sense should say "HEY! this lighting fixture is equivilent to a 250w or 400w MH so maybe I should only run it at 40-50% on my Reeftank". As for different fixture and or manufacturers producing different quality and blends of LED's absolutely but same goes for MH and T5's yet this does not seem to be overly difficult for the masses to comprehend. Why is there such a problem in doing the same with LED tech. IMHO it is because of all the mis-information spouted on the forums on the subject of LED's, just as it was to a lesser degree on T5 and VHO systems not long ago. I could not even tell you how many people informed me of my inevitable demise of all my Coral if I continued to keep them under my VHO lighting, was fun to watch their jaw drop when I informed them that most of my prospering Corals had been under these very VHO's for more 15 years. I'll go back to "Photons are Photons" does not matter the source as long as it is within acceptable spectrum and intensity, all of the correct information is readily available online for any of the sources one would choose. All can work very well and all have pluses and minuses.
Cheers, Todd
