Going Fallow - Process and Questions

[Eclyps19]

Hi there!

My 30g tank has been established for roughly 4 months now. I introduced ich with one of my more recent additions, so I'm in the process of going fallow and QTing my fish for the required 76ish days to both heal my fish and rid my DT of any remaining ich.

Fish livestock (currently in QT):
- 2 clowns
- 1 Royal Gramma
- 1 Fairy Wrasse
- 1 Yellow Watchman Goby

My DT is has ~6 frags and maybe 16 or so inverts (hermits, 2x trochus, 4x astrea, 1x cleaner shrimp)

I've been dosing my QT with cuprion for a few days do bring it up to 0.20ppm. I'm at 0.15ppm now and will likely reach 0.20 by tomorrow.

So here are my questions:

1. Ammonia is my #1 concern right now. I have an ammonia alert on the tank and will be regularly testing. I soaked a sponge in Bio-spira Instant Ocean for a day before putting it inside my cheap aqua clear filter, but didn't want to use anything from my existing tank just to be safe. When it comes to feeding, my Goby and Wrasse don't like coming to the top of the tank, so I have to let the food settle. Each night I've been going in with a dropper to try to suck up anything that settles to the bottom so it doesn't break down. Is this good enough for a while to help reduce the frequency of WCs?
2. My Wrasse has been acting all sorts of strange ever since I brought him home. He was QTed at the LFS and I saw him a number of times during this period where he acted completely fine. A day after he was home, though, he would occasionally swim sideways and just let himself sink in weird positions. He still eats just fine and overall seems in good spirits (not overly scared, no heavy breathing, etc), but his behavior doesn't seem normal. The plan with him is to treat with copper to make sure that ich isn't contributing to his behavior, then do a full WC to clear the QT of copper and then start treating with Prazi.
3. Is it worth adding a small dish of sand for my Wrasse to sleep in/on? I don't have anything in the tank other than 2 PVC pipes to make sure that parasites don't have anything to cling to, but if it can help with stress and won't be a big deal, I'll happily add a small dish of unused sand.
4. I know that my DT needs to fallow for 76 days to ensure that the ich all dies off. That means that my fish get to enjoy the QT for those 76 days. During that time, I'm planning on 30 days of copper, a small break with no medication, and then a period of dosing with Prazi. Since I have the time, is it worth continuing with copper beyond those 30 days, or is that just prolonging the stress to the fish with no added benefit?
5. I keep reading that any drop below the "therapeutic" copper levels will allow the ich to survive. For cuprion, that's 0.20ppm. There must be some "safe zone" that I can keep levels between, though... even if I test daily (which I am doing), keeping it at 0.20ppm will almost certainly drop to 0.19ppm at some point. Am I safer to slightly over dose (maybe 0.22ppm), or risk letting it drop to 0.19ppm occasionally?
6. I've removed the activated carbon bag from my filter as I don't want it to absorb any of the copper (though I know it's not very good at copper removal anyway). Would it be more beneficial to add it back in?

Ultimately I'm just looking to make sure that my DT is clear of ich and my fish are safe and happy. I'll be taking more precaution in the future by QTing (at home) for an appropriate period of time if I ever need to replace some livestock, but I'd hate to go through this long process and have some ich still survive. Does my plan seem appropriate?

Feedback is appreciated. Thank you!

 

[Dimmy007]

We should ask the experts @Humblefish

 

[ngoodermuth]

1. Ammonia is my #1 concern right now. I have an ammonia alert on the tank and will be regularly testing. I soaked a sponge in Bio-spira Instant Ocean for a day before putting it inside my cheap aqua clear filter, but didn't want to use anything from my existing tank just to be safe. When it comes to feeding, my Goby and Wrasse don't like coming to the top of the tank, so I have to let the food settle. Each night I've been going in with a dropper to try to suck up anything that settles to the bottom so it doesn't break down. Is this good enough for a while to help reduce the frequency of WCs?

Good plan. You can also do waterchanges as needed, as long as you dose the new water before adding it to the QT.

2. My Wrasse has been acting all sorts of strange ever since I brought him home. He was QTed at the LFS and I saw him a number of times during this period where he acted completely fine. A day after he was home, though, he would occasionally swim sideways and just let himself sink in weird positions. He still eats just fine and overall seems in good spirits (not overly scared, no heavy breathing, etc), but his behavior doesn't seem normal. The plan with him is to treat with copper to make sure that ich isn't contributing to his behavior, then do a full WC to clear the QT of copper and then start treating with Prazi.

Could just be normal acclimation behavior. Fairy and flasher wrasses can act strangely until they’ve fully acclimated. 30 days of copper, followed by two doses of praziquantel 5-7 days apart, is a good plan. I’d also consider deworming by food-soaking with metroplex or General cure +focus for 2-3 weeks, since wrasses are notorious for intestinal parasites.

3. Is it worth adding a small dish of sand for my Wrasse to sleep in/on? I don't have anything in the tank other than 2 PVC pipes to make sure that parasites don't have anything to cling to, but if it can help with stress and won't be a big deal, I'll happily add a small dish of unused sand.

No sand is needed for these fish, Pvc elbows work great.

4. I know that my DT needs to fallow for 76 days to ensure that the ich all dies off. That means that my fish get to enjoy the QT for those 76 days. During that time, I'm planning on 30 days of copper, a small break with no medication, and then a period of dosing with Prazi. Since I have the time, is it worth continuing with copper beyond those 30 days, or is that just prolonging the stress to the fish with no added benefit?

30 days is plenty, remove with cuprisorb and water changes and then start prazi.

5. I keep reading that any drop below the "therapeutic" copper levels will allow the ich to survive. For cuprion, that's 0.20ppm. There must be some "safe zone" that I can keep levels between, though... even if I test daily (which I am doing), keeping it at 0.20ppm will almost certainly drop to 0.19ppm at some point. Am I safer to slightly over dose (maybe 0.22ppm), or risk letting it drop to 0.19ppm occasionally?

I’ve never used cuprion, you could maybe go a little higher... but mostly just keep it steady at therapeutic. For example, with cupramine therapeutic level is .5... under .35 is not going to work and over .6 becomes toxic to the fish. It actually stays pretty steady on its own... as long as you don’t have live rock and sand absorbing it, stay consistent with top off level, and dose new water during water changes to therapeutic before it hits the tank.

6. I've removed the activated carbon bag from my filter as I don't want it to absorb any of the copper (though I know it's not very good at copper removal anyway). Would it be more beneficial to add it back in?

No carbon or chemical filtration, will remove the copper.

~Looks like you have a good plan, good luck!

 

[Eclyps19]

Well things have changed quite a bit in the past day... my two clowns and goby seem to be doing great.

My wrasse is swimming even worse now and has not eaten since yesterday. My gramma has been hiding in the corner and is now pooping white strings and not eating. Both of these fish have significantly more ich on them then they did 2 days ago.

Cuprion levels are at 0.18 now and was preparing to bring it up to the therapeutic level of 0.20 today, but I’m considering getting rid of all of the copper and switching to metro dosing. My concern for both of these two is that they aren’t eating. If it’s the copper, then they won’t make it for 30 days. If it’s from internal parasites, I can clean that up fairly quickly with metro followed by prazi. If it’s from irritation from the ich, I can at least help them with short-term baths.

Thoughts?

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Well things have changed quite a bit in the past day... my two clowns and goby seem to be doing great.

My wrasse is swimming even worse now and has not eaten since yesterday. My gramma has been hiding in the corner and is now pooping white strings and not eating. Both of these fish have significantly more ich on them then they did 2 days ago.

Cuprion levels are at 0.18 now and was preparing to bring it up to the therapeutic level of 0.20 today, but I’m considering getting rid of all of the copper and switching to metro dosing. My concern for both of these two is that they aren’t eating. If it’s the copper, then they won’t make it for 30 days. If it’s from internal parasites, I can clean that up fairly quickly with metro followed by prazi. If it’s from irritation from the ich, I can at least help them with short-term baths.

Thoughts?

With a wrasse I would use cheleted copper (copper power) at 1.75ppm or a tad lower as 1.50 is therapeutic and this easier on sensitive fish like wrasse. The white stringy poop is definitely signs of internal parasites and could be a reason for not eating either. If it were me I would switch to copper power. And start treating for internal parasites with either metro or GC+Focus laced foods and either metro or GC in the water column also.

 

[Eclyps19]

Can I use metro in the water column with copper? I know copper + prazi can cause bad blooms, not sure about the metro combo.

 

[MnFish1]

Well things have changed quite a bit in the past day... my two clowns and goby seem to be doing great.

My wrasse is swimming even worse now and has not eaten since yesterday. My gramma has been hiding in the corner and is now pooping white strings and not eating. Both of these fish have significantly more ich on them then they did 2 days ago.

Cuprion levels are at 0.18 now and was preparing to bring it up to the therapeutic level of 0.20 today, but I’m considering getting rid of all of the copper and switching to metro dosing. My concern for both of these two is that they aren’t eating. If it’s the copper, then they won’t make it for 30 days. If it’s from internal parasites, I can clean that up fairly quickly with metro followed by prazi. If it’s from irritation from the ich, I can at least help them with short-term baths.

Thoughts?

Are you sure that there is 'significantly more ich' on the fish (ie. are the number of spots higher - or are the same spots just getting bigger). If I'm reading correctly - you've had the fish in QT for 1 day correct? its possible that 1 - either your copper levels aren't accurate (i.e. its a bit low - and there is still active CI in your tank or 2- that there were sites of infection starting that are now growing enough to be visible (in which case only time will take care of those).

Perhaps consider double checking your copper test? How often are you testing your levels?

 

[Eclyps19]

I’ve had them in the QT for about 4 days now. The gramma and wrasse both definitely had ich when I placed them in QT, so you’re correct, these may just be them getting larger.

Copper testing daily with the Hanna High arrange tester, so pretty certain that it’s accurate. Will the copper actually knock the ich off the fish, or will it just kill fresh hatchlings before they can attach? I have not done a FW dip recently to try to reduce the stress, but I feel like one is necessary right now.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Can I use metro in the water column with copper? I know copper + prazi can cause bad blooms, not sure about the metro combo.

You can use Metro with copper and it can cause a bloom but I think it’s less likely than Prazi to cause a bloom. Just make sure you aerate the tank heavily.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

I’ve had them in the QT for about 4 days now. The gramma and wrasse both definitely had ich when I placed them in QT, so you’re correct, these may just be them getting larger.

Copper testing daily with the Hanna High arrange tester, so pretty certain that it’s accurate. Will the copper actually knock the ich off the fish, or will it just kill fresh hatchlings before they can attach? I have not done a FW dip recently to try to reduce the stress, but I feel like one is necessary right now.

The copper kills the free swimming stage so you’ll see these “spots” drop off and they will go to the bottom and encyst. When they hatch and start looking for a host is when copper kills them.

 

[MnFish1]

I’ve had them in the QT for about 4 days now. The gramma and wrasse both definitely had ich when I placed them in QT, so you’re correct, these may just be them getting larger.

Copper testing daily with the Hanna High arrange tester, so pretty certain that it’s accurate. Will the copper actually knock the ich off the fish, or will it just kill fresh hatchlings before they can attach? I have not done a FW dip recently to try to reduce the stress, but I feel like one is necessary right now.

No - it will kill them after they encyst and hatch - it can take 3-7 days for the 'spots' to drop off.

 

[Eclyps19]

Okay, so maybe a FW dip to help get rid of some attached ich, keep going with copper, and attempt metro bound with food for a bit. If after a couple days they still aren’t eating, clear the copper and bring the levels back up more slowly with something less harsh like copper power.

 

[Eclyps19]

Well this is a bummer, but the Royal Gramma didn’t make it. Found him on his side this morning, barely breathing. Was gone within an hour.

Visual inspection of the body didn’t provide any clues. External parasites seemed to be reduced since the previous day. No abrasions, lumps, bulges, etc. coloration was fairly normal. Gills were extended out a bit after he passed, but I’m not sure if that is normal after passing. They closed back up when removed from the water.

He did poop a significant amount of white string over the past 36 hours. My guess for the cause of death is aggressive internal parasites. I saw no signs of flukes with a FW dip, pre and post mortem.

My Wrasse is still swimming sideways, though I have not seen him poop recently and can’t confirm internal parasites for him. I’m treating the entire QT for both internal and external for now. My 2 clowns and goby are still doing great, with no abnormal behavior.

I don’t expect my wrasse to make it, but things are looking good for the other fish.

Lesson learned - quarantine everything before it goes into the DT. Not worth the risk to your other livestock. Had the Royal Gramma for a couple months and was doing great until the Wrasse joined, so I think he’s the carrier.